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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted April 10, 2017 05:54 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
But the question is, why "more realiatic" would equal better. In case of HoMM it's at least debatable.
Sure, "more realistic" equals always better to me, no matter the type of game. Therefore it is simply a personal preference and not anything objective. I just don’t like abstract theme based stylization and comical elements in games. Because of the subjective nature of this topic I simply do not believe that not following H3 art theme makes H7 any worse, since I perceive this artistic departure starting from H5 subjectively positive, therefore H5 is the base game for me and H3 is rather history.
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted April 10, 2017 06:27 PM |
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Zeki said:
While there clearly is abit of "child's imagination" in h3's style i don'T see anything wrong with this, as this is a game about fairytail and mythology creatures
But I do see problems with this. This is also true for Ashan. I’d rather replace Ashan with some Forgotten realms theme. Therefore I never read the lore: that would kill my immersion, I use my own imagination when having to put the creatures into context. Therefore I don’t play campains as well.
Anime: from wiki:
Being hand-drawn, anime is separated from reality by a crucial gap of fiction that provides an ideal path for escapism that audiences can immerse themselves into with relative ease.
Graphics: Yeah I think the original H3 figures are something that can be produced by children (without rendering 3D to 2D). I don’t see them as something drawn or designed by professionals. Community content and some stuff is OK, I’m talking mostly about original content.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 10, 2017 07:22 PM |
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The fact the people who like Ashan despise the original setting and vice-versa speaks volume about how wrong Ashan went for this series, it would be like suddenly giving Batman superpowers and the Joker a rational persona.
Visually and lore-wise Ashan is so distant from Enroth and Axeoth that it is hard to reconcile both. H6 and H7 have been more consistent with its own lore than H5 and it is no surprise the general displeasure of this setting increased in return. The lack of interest Ubisoft showed in the Might and Magic IP not only universe-wise but also spirit-wise has been dreadful. Putting into the trashcan the work from NWC (three factions ready, the engine, the design concepts, etc) as well as not even trying to hire them, not even showing the interest to dwell into the series for real was a bad move that sadly no one in the inside could revert.
The point of the matter is, all (or most of) the fandom from the NWC era (which is still a huge chunk of the whole series) LOVED the original setting, put aside the sci-fi background that could be easily ignored (for years I was not aware of it and is most likely the case for most, specifically casuals). But other than the lore, was also an atmospheric style, that was the signature of some very specific and talented artists who had bestowed a strong visual identity to the series. Even if some of the monsters were taken directly from DnD, that some units might seem a bit cliché, it created a coherent and beautiful whole that meant something to us. There is some difference in graphics between h2, h3 and h4, but you can just feel they are part of the same entity if you are sensible enough.
What do you think happens when, you have a fandom who loves the color blue, but hate the color purple, then after four iterations within different shades of blue that created a solid fanbase throughout the years, you suddenly give them purple instead, different shades of purple each and every one worst than the other. It is not to their taste! Ashan is not to my taste and Ashan is not to the taste of many, many fans of these series. From the online activity I've noticed, most of the people who really like Ashan discovered the series with Ashan, and h5 has been their first heroes game at best. So then, inside the blue crowd, arrive some purple enthusiasts. Again what will happen? War, it's inevitable. The blue people will be disgusted their blue is being polluted by purple and the purple people will keep on saying blue is a crappy color anyway. This is absurd, this is also why I said earlier, drastically changing the very atmosphere, feel and spirit of the series is objectively wrong. Because it is simply not fitting to the subjective preference of the former fandom which was expecting blue but got purple instead. So yes, while taste is subjective, to fully surround the matter at hand you need a larger vision and see things from a whole taking into consideration history. Then you understand clash of tastes don't come out from nowhere but behind a painfully obvious fact: changing the spirit of the series.
This is why I consider objectively Ashan has been one of the worst things this franchise ever had to endure, because it severely divided the fanbase, and had an evident impact on sales. Ubisoft had at least three full generations of gamers willing to pay for a new iteration and growing every year, they chose to dismiss those and look for others. Awful, awful decision, in terms of business, and in terms of heritage, IMHO
So yes, in the homm fandom you now basically have the NWC people and the UBI people, as if it were two different fandoms from two different games, spare a few who are perfectly fine with h3/h5 or h2/h5. Imo The "real" Ashan comes starting from h6, and it has been tragic, h6 has been a fiasco and h7 an even bigger fiasco in terms of critical reception and more.
Now Ubi continues to try milking by attacking the mobile market with it, but they are no JVC so they pulled again a mediocre product, completely lacking the essence of what Might and Magic used to be about.
So while my sadness can seem irrational at times, it is real.
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 10, 2017 10:07 PM |
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Yeah, I suppose that does cover it well.
I have to agree that H6 has been a disappointment at best, and while I wasn't around to see the full extent of H7's reception, it indeed appears to be filled with bugs, which no doubt saps a lot of enjoyment from the game, even with seemingly improved gameplay. Unfinished, buggy products and using the franchise to go for the mobile market isn't the direction I'd want the series to take either.
Then there's the issue with the setting clash - have the Lost Tales of Axeoth managed to somehow help make it less severe?
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted April 10, 2017 11:41 PM |
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Sligneris said:
Then there's the issue with the setting clash - have the Lost Tales of Axeoth managed to somehow help make it less severe?
Well, no, it has nothing to do with the main setting of the series as a whole.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 11, 2017 07:39 AM |
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Bitula said:
JollyJoker said:
But the question is, why "more realiatic" would equal better. In case of HoMM it's at least debatable.
Sure, "more realistic" equals always better to me, no matter the type of game. Therefore it is simply a personal preference and not anything objective. I just don’t like abstract theme based stylization and comical elements in games. Because of the subjective nature of this topic I simply do not believe that not following H3 art theme makes H7 any worse, since I perceive this artistic departure starting from H5 subjectively positive, therefore H5 is the base game for me and H3 is rather history.
Then HoMM is a game you shouldn't like, because it's an unrealistic game at its core, and not because it's fantasy. Total War is a "realistic" (War)game. HoMM is NOWHERE trying to simulate something, and at best the idea to make the chess pieces look "epically badass in a realistic way" is a brainfart, becaue it forces the game into a direction that makes it vulnerable for involuntary comical effects, criticism and unbelieving.
It should be a game you can heartily laugh about, and not because some flagpoles yell Griffin Eternal.
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted April 11, 2017 12:02 PM |
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Edited by Bitula at 12:03, 11 Apr 2017.
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JollyJoker said:
Then HoMM is a game you shouldn't like
H5 is one of my favorite strategy games of all times. Otherwise why would I post here?
JollyJoker said:
becaue it forces the game into a direction that makes it vulnerable for involuntary comical effects, criticism and unbelieving
Yes, but in this case I think involuntary comical effects and unbelieving shouldn’t lead to cristicism. What do you want to believe in this type of game anyway? It is by its nature unbelievable. Why would intentional comical effects and open declaration of "unscientific (fantasy) fiction" be any better? It’s simply a discussion of traditional/historical fantasy settings (Fantasy realism) versus (comic) fantasy fiction. Some would prefer the former. I see no problem in establishing the former in Homm as a general direction for H8.
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Zeki
Supreme Hero
sup
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posted April 11, 2017 12:50 PM |
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Edited by Zeki at 12:51, 11 Apr 2017.
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Bitula said:
But I do see problems with this. This is also true for Ashan. I’d rather replace Ashan with some Forgotten realms theme. Therefore I never read the lore: that would kill my immersion, I use my own imagination when having to put the creatures into context. Therefore I don’t play campains as well.
What i get from this is, that you simply prefer darker and more serious settings and visual styles, which is alright and nobody can argue with that as it'S just a matter of personal preference. But please stop trying to somehow validate that by spouting such nonsense like "h3 graphics look like children's drawings" and "ashan style is more realistic than nwc style".
Bitula said:
Anime: from wiki:
Being hand-drawn, anime is separated from reality by a crucial gap of fiction that provides an ideal path for escapism that audiences can immerse themselves into with relative ease.
What am i supposed to do with that? Being animated (in the broadest sense), video games are seperated from reality by a crucial gap of fiction that provides an ideal path of escapism that audiences can immerse themselves into with relative ease. There. With this you just invalidated your own discussion if anything else.
Bitula said:
Graphics: Yeah I think the original H3 figures are something that can be produced by children (without rendering 3D to 2D). I don’t see them as something drawn or designed by professionals. Community content and some stuff is OK, I’m talking mostly about original content.
If i wouldn't know any better i'd say your trolling right now, i really can't take such statements serious.
Bitula said:
Yes, but in this case I think involuntary comical effects and unbelieving shouldn’t lead to cristicism.
lolwat
Trying to be serious but ending up ridiculous and childish (you know, the thing you hate so much) because of incompetence should not lead to criticism
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted April 11, 2017 02:43 PM |
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Zeki said:
What i get from this is, that you simply prefer darker and more serious settings and visual styles, which is alright and nobody can argue with that as it'S just a matter of personal preference. But please stop trying to somehow validate that by spouting such nonsense like "h3 graphics look like children's drawings" and "ashan style is more realistic than nwc style".
What? No. Sure there is nothing less realistic than Ashan. I’m talking about out of settings general impression of visuals. Wasn’t this clear so far? Sure it looks like child’s drawing: mama, papa, dog, house, flowers. Just that: mage, thief, kobold, horse: they look like a party dressed up for Halloween, like staff from circus: lion, lion tamer, knife thrower. And look, if you are a fan of the Old Universe and have in depth knowledge of related lore, you probably see it differently, so I don’t want to make fun of OU fans, just expressing my general impression of H3 art style and quality. Anyway if it is fairy tale, then it IS childish, what is your problem here? Fairy tales are made for children.
Zeki said:
What am i supposed to do with that? Being animated (in the broadest sense)...
You are just playing with words. Anime is certainly not just an abbreviation of animation, there is a whole tradition and history behind it which you ignore.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 11, 2017 02:48 PM |
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These are graphics that heroes should have. H7 was the pinnacle of heroic realism.
btw. 1600 is close
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted April 11, 2017 02:53 PM |
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Didn't want to do this, but here goes...for the third time 
Everything has been said and done a million times and everyone knows where everyone else stands, so what is the point of discussing it any further?
Did you know that I like H6, by the way? Who would have thought! Graphics are stunning, gameplay is appealing, I like those Dynasty Weapons and a lot of the other features implemented. Sure, things would have been better if the game was totally bug free and not as rushed as it was back then. Still, H6 is love, H6 is life, but as I said before, I like every Heroes game (well, the ones that I know) for reasons specific to that particular game. There is no good and bad, not for me at least  .
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 11, 2017 02:57 PM |
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Dies_Irae said:
I like H6! Graphics are stunning, gameplay is appealing, I like those Dynasty Weapons and a lot of the other features implemented.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 11, 2017 02:57 PM |
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for my share this thread should be closed or destroyed given Heroes 6 and 7 were never released lol
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 11, 2017 03:18 PM |
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You know, we should hide any evidence that these games ever existed and feign ignorance when new fans come asking. That would save people a lot of braincells and bug-related ragequits ^^
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted April 11, 2017 03:22 PM |
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verriker said:
for my share this thread should be closed or destroyed given Heroes 6 and 7 were never released lol
I prefer closed, because if the whole thing is deleted we will also lose a lot of proof of community disappointment in the Ubi-era games . 1600 pages is hell to browse through but at least everyone's opinion is bundled here and repeated multiple times, in discussions and clashes and cries of despair. It's a relic. Not necessarily one to be proud of, but history is full of those anyway.
I'll go back to my dungeon now .
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted April 11, 2017 03:34 PM |
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This thread served as a sponge. A potato sponge.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 11, 2017 04:12 PM |
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Dies_Irae said:
Graphics are stunning
That's... well, that's certainly one way to describe it.
Don't get me wrong, there are numerous creature artworks and hero portraits that look great, even though that's not a rule either. But in some cases the models look like a downgrade even compared to H5 and definitely so compared to Dark Messiah if you just look at Xana over there. Those games were released when, 2006?
As far as the bad artworks go, H7 did a great deal to help with this, look at Menan's portrait for example. But the H6 leftovers such as Yeshtar or Sylsai really don't look good. And that's just the Dungeon faction - Anastasya and Zenda also could've used a workover and those were, may I remind you, main campaign characters.
Also, when it comes to gameplay - H6 made leveling up boring and just left me in constant state of indecisiveness, which is what actually annoys me about a lot of games nowadays. Skills felt like they had no impact, I didn't feel like I was building something meaningful like I did with H5. Certainly not an upgrade here either.
One thing I was fond of was the control zones (and that was done better in H7 too) and maybe dynasty weapons, just to read the lore behind these artifacts. But aside from that, H6's didn't really bring many improvements to gameplay.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted April 11, 2017 06:06 PM |
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Dies_Irae said:
Didn't want to do this, but here goes...for the third time
Everything has been said and done a million times and everyone knows where everyone else stands, so what is the point of discussing it any further?
Dies_Irae said:
Did you know that I like H6, by the way? Who would have thought! Graphics are stunning, gameplay is appealing, I like those Dynasty Weapons and a lot of the other features implemented. Sure, things would have been better if the game was totally bug free and not as rushed as it was back then. Still, H6 is love, H6 is life, but as I said before, I like every Heroes game (well, the ones that I know) for reasons specific to that particular game. There is no good and bad, not for me at least .
There are only two big issues I have with H6: trees (town and skill).
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 11, 2017 06:37 PM |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 11, 2017 07:55 PM |
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Brace yourselves the Erwin memes are coming.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
