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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 02, 2015 09:37 AM |
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@Dies_Irae:
On what difficulty were you playing? I tried both Hard and Normal, enemy allways had only one hero who had all army, and other heroes which were "empty". The only splitting I have done was, I would put like 5 or so spearmen or any other core unit to my secondary hero, and then just hunt down all enemy "empty" heroes (putting one core worked, but sometimes enemy had one core in their army aswell, so having 5-6 was more sure to work).
At any rate, yes town conversation has certain advantages, but to me it seems it creates bigger problem that it solves. Maybe it's implementation reason. But so far I have not seen it implemented properly, so this means it's too complex and hard to do. Better skipp it all the way.
EDIT: An idea! Maybe when starting a game you could have a function, to "imprint" one hero (can change to other hero with no army latter, at no cost), to one town, and you can only have creatures recruited from that "imprinted" town and area, this town controlls, in that hero's army. Extra dwellings, that are not under any town area, but are just there under fort or by themselves, can be put in any army regardless.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 02, 2015 09:41 AM |
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Dies_Irae said:
Town conversion in H6 may have been easy since it cost only resources (but the more developed a town is, the more resources you have to pay), but I liked it.
I think most objections were to how easy and fast it was to accomplish. Enemy captures your town and if he has enough resources, the entire town is converted overnight, including all creature dwellings and whatmore. It made it trivial.
By taking more time for conversions and more resources with larger towns, a compromise can be reached that might satisfy both sides of the fence in an acceptable way.
Of course, the problem in random maps is the randomizer; it should make sure that each player faction (whether it's Human or AI) should have about an equal amount of towns on the map.
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted April 02, 2015 09:46 AM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
@Dies_Irae:
On what difficulty were you playing? I tried both Hard and Normal, enemy allways had only one hero who had all army, and other heroes which were "empty". The only splitting I have done was, I would put like 5 or so spearmen or any other core unit to my secondary hero, and then just hunt down all enemy "empty" heroes (putting one core worked, but sometimes enemy had one core in their army aswell, so having 5-6 was more sure to work).
Easy  ....
Seriously, if I accidentally play on Normal I'm always surprised why my plans fail and why a wickedly powerful hero comes at me early on. I really should develop more elaborate skills...
Even so, also on Easy there will be one enemy hero that usually carries a large army, but also secondary ones who are either empty as you say, or equipped with a small force. I always build the Advanced Town Portal asap so I can teleport my main hero back to a town when he/she is far away. On Easy, the enemy always sends the powerful hero to a threatened town, which allows me to use a secondary hero to attack a second town which is left (virtually) unprotected. I kind of tend to leave fortresses etc unguarded myself (it would be a tragic waste of a small garrison if they are repeatedly defeated).
Flyswatting is usually necessary in campaigns, even on Easy difficulty, because the AI always sends waves of troops. I couldn't win "A Battle Lost and Won" because of that, and it still surprises me how I even managed to do it later on (must be the Edge of Balance). Snowing level 30 Inferno magic heroes with excessive magic power... .
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted April 02, 2015 10:30 AM |
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Speaking of secondary Hero, in H6, when you had a higher level, say, level 15, in which level you would find another one to hire at your Halls of Heroes?
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted April 02, 2015 10:34 AM |
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PandaTar said:
Speaking of secondary Hero, in H6, when you had a higher level, say, level 15, in which level you would find another one to hire at your Halls of Heroes?
Heroes in Hall of Heroes will have level smaller by 5 than your main, so in that case it would be 10.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 02, 2015 10:43 AM |
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Dies_Irae said:
I really should develop more elaborate skills...
Nah, I think it's game's fault. Maybe easy is the way to go  . On normal games start to take forever. Throngs of Champions become something common. AI, at least between normal and hard isn't much diferent. Hard only has bigger armies. They all cheat.
The most annoying thing (idk if it's this way on easy aswell) to me, is that AI always knows exact position and number of your troops in armies and towns. Even if they haven't "discovered" that town yet. Then AI proceeds to calculate pixel perfect for 30 moves in advance, so that he always evades your hero by just one step. This is regardless if you have Logistic or not, which means it knows also what skills your hero has and takes that into account. Also, in H6 it was evident (even if I have no hard proof) that he takes all that info into account and calculates "auto combat" in the background, which makes him decide to engage your hero or not. If the result is loss, he'll run, even if armies are about similar size, and human player could pull of a win in that situation.
I noticed this in H5 realy, but in H6 it was even more pronounced. So I realy wish AI in H7 will not resort to this, and will be more "life-like".
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 02, 2015 10:56 AM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
The most annoying thing (idk if it's this way on easy aswell) to me, is that AI always knows exact position and number of your troops in armies and towns.
This was also true in other games, like for instance in Heroes3. It always annoyed me to no end how the AI would react to my recruitment efforts on towns he hadn't yet seen. This is most obvious when you use the Cover of Darkness from either the adventure map building or a Necropolis. The AI does tend to get stuck scanning the same area over and over again each turn, but at the same time when you approach with an army stronger than his, he will run - even if he couldn't possibly have seen that Hero.
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted April 02, 2015 11:04 AM |
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@Zombi_Wizzard:
I already experienced that on Easy games could take a while, especially campaigns. Still, I'm glad that I eventually completed them. Difficulty determines army size, that's certain, but also...AI superiority? I mean, does the AI play better on higher difficulty? I wouldn't be surprised.
Ah yes, it's sometimes of little use to start chasing after a hero. Only when he/she is within range of one of my towns or forts do I try to engage (in this case, the Planeswalker trait is a good one because it saves a whole lot of movement points when portaling to a town or fort).
In my latest session, "Dark with Excessive Bright", I played as the Stronghold faction, and somewhere in the beginning there was a Sanctuary hero approaching my town. Her army was big enough to defeat me, but I forgot to buy a few centaurs and some harpies. When I had bought those, the hero still attacked me and lost the auto-combat, leaving me with only a handful of units (speaking of a close call). Usually autocombat messes up, because when I play manually I can always avoid the losses, or at least most of them, that autocombat inflicts. However, I'm not sure about this moment though...
I don't know if the AI is indeed calculating and planning ahead on you, I haven't experienced it that way.
We're talking about H6 in a H7 Discussion Thread  . Oh well, I guess we can justify this by simply referring to H7 and express our hopes of how this will be implemented in that game, right?
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 02, 2015 12:10 PM |
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@Maurice:
I don't know if this was the case in H3. That could very well be, that cover of darkness simply didn't have any effect on AI. I know for certain, that AI there, at least atempted to scout out your town with secondary heroes. It's important to note, that in H3 there was no "fog of war", just the black cover. After you removed it, you could see what army enemy town has (rough estimates). I also "surprised" AI heroes on more than one occasion, when he didn't apparently discover the black cover, and my hero suddenly appeared next to his. He would then, in most cases just redirect his hero to pass mine, and not engage. I could engage next turn if I wanted. Sometimes he would even go with his hero, and when meeting mine, he would turn and atempt to run back.
Now I'm not claiming that in H3 AI didn't cheat in this way, as it could simply be the fact, that he wasn't as "smart" (I guess) as latter version. Or he didn't check the positions every turn but just every second or every third turn. Or he didn't check after certain distance. Could be more situations.
It depends on map layout aswell. In H5 this behaviour was most clearly evident if you play map "Great Confrontation" or "Heritage" (I'm talking Hard difficulty setting in this example, but I belive Normal AI also does this, as well as Heroic).
@Dies_Irae:
It was calculating ahead in H6. It could even be abused to your benefit in some situations. If you have H6 installed, and are willing to spend some time playing, try the map called: "Rise to Power". It's circular map. After you clear the path to enemy town from 2 sides do the folowing:
1.) You need 2 heroes for this stunt. Secondary hero must have some troops (5 spearmen), and have Logistics.
2.) Send main hero wherever, to conquer a town ahead of you clockwise for eg.
3.) Send your secondary hero through the center of map towards his town. His town is most likely unguarded. Once your hero is within reach, AI will teleport to his city to protect it. At this point you run, and will be most likely able to outrun him, since you have a distance between you and him already.
4.) AI hero will chase you, and you go in circle, back to his town. At a point, he'll no longer chase you, cause, he'll lose town, but will instead teleport. If your hero is in danger, and unable to avoid being attacked next turn, teleport to home.
5.) Repeat the process. You have effectivley "locked" AI to his home town. He'll not attack your main guy or your town. And your main hero is free to conquer remaining enemies 
I discovered this in my first game. After that several patches and expansions came, so I'm unsure, if it still works. Tested on Normal and Hard. It's the best example of how enemy AI can see your hero, town and army and calculate the distances.
P.S.: Since this is talk about AI, it's impossible to talk H7 AI, since we don't know nothing about it. We can only hope to point to holes in AI from older titles, and hope H7 will correct some if possible.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 02, 2015 03:25 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Again we go with this "Erwan the Almighty"...
I think he will be quite amused to read how you perceive him. I think he doesn't even dream about having this kind of power you speak of ^_^
he actually did have that power over Heroes 6, and I'm sure he would be telling everyone as much from the rooftops if the game had been any good,
but still maybe one of us should wear the avatar of Chris Crocker, with the signature "leave Erwin alooooone!", to cancel me out? lol
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JotunLogi
Known Hero
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posted April 02, 2015 04:02 PM |
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Come on, Ubi and Erwan know that M&M: Heroes 6 was below expectations and why it is so. I like new universe and the lore behind units of Strongholds shows that it is getting better 
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted April 02, 2015 04:12 PM |
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verriker said:
he actually did have that power over Heroes 6, and I'm sure he would be telling everyone as much from the rooftops if the game had been any good,
but still maybe one of us should wear the avatar of Chris Crocker, with the signature "leave Erwin alooooone!", to cancel me out? lol
Let me guess... the next step would be "Ubi is bad" and "BH was a good developer screwed by the publisher"? Reminds me of "Nival is good!"
Ah, people just need a target for their hatred it seems... A few try to dig for truth.
And yeah, your jokes are so funny nowadays
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 02, 2015 04:16 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Let me guess... the next step would be "Ubi is bad" and "BH was a good developer screwed by the publisher"? Reminds me of "Nival is good!"
Ah, people just need a target for their hatred it seems... A few try to dig for truth.
And yeah, your jokes are so funny nowadays
You gotta be kiddin me
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted April 02, 2015 04:21 PM |
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Galaad said:
You gotta be kiddin me
You gotta be kidding me for believing in a letter from a biased member of a bankropted company. Btw, if I haven't made that clear, I know about this letter.
But nobody seems to mention the game code BH made, which was noted to be very big (don't believe me - ask modders) and clumsy. Bit I guess Ubi are to blame in this as well ^_^
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 02, 2015 04:26 PM |
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Publisher always find a way to blame the developers is what I know.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 02, 2015 04:27 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
You gotta be kidding me for believing in a letter from a biased member of a bankropted company. Btw, if I haven't made that clear, I know about this letter.
You gotta be kidding me for trusting in Ubisoft, lol
btw it does seem to be true that Romain du Waubert left suddenly along with a number of other Ubi employees in the middle of Heroes 6, including Jeff Spock the unhappy writer lol
https://twitter.com/jspock/status/126307622210109440
Jeff Spock said:
Reading Heroes VI reviews. I will NEVER work on a game again where I am called "Lead Writer" or "Narrative Director" but have no authority.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted April 02, 2015 04:28 PM |
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Galaad said:
Publisher always find a way to blame the developers is what I know.
Suprise-surprise - developers do exactly the same! And the truth is in between.
verriker said:
You gotta be kidding me for trusting in Ubisoft, lol
btw it does seem to be true that Romain du Waubert left suddenly along with a number of other Ubi employees in the middle of Heroes 6, including Jeff Spock the unhappy writer lol
And here comes the verriker, always reading my posts carelessly, or else, please, point me where I said I trust Ubi?  You might have missed my discussion with Stevie several days ago.
You want me to defend H6's crappy development? No please.
P.S.: Jeff Spock, the unhappy writer, later wrote an entire comic for Ubi. Quite strange if you ask me ^^
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted April 02, 2015 04:29 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Ah, people just need a target for their hatred it seems... A few try to dig for truth.
The project is not floating in limbo doing itself. Someone is responsible. Or should be. Also, the idea of fans killing games, although rather accurate in some points, is also pointless – gamers, whether one likes or not, support games with their money and fanbase/loyaty, whichever term is more suitable. Slap their faces, they slap back. Someone is bound to suffer anyway, although not always the one that should be blamed. Still, it seems no one seems to acknowledge their part when things go awry. Complete lack of responsibility and compromise; UBI, seemingly, lives in Wonderland when it comes to this franchise and that's pretty much clear by now.
I sort of decided not to buy any more of Heroes franchise hereon in. I just feel like I cannot allow the current state of things tarnish my likelihood towards this franchise. I'll, however, follow news, in any event that a great and positive wave of progress happen to occur (which is a great, imperial, humongous, almost utopic IF).
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Sorts
Known Hero
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posted April 02, 2015 04:33 PM |
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Galaad said:
Sandro400 said:
Let me guess... the next step would be "Ubi is bad" and "BH was a good developer screwed by the publisher"? Reminds me of "Nival is good!"
Ah, people just need a target for their hatred it seems... A few try to dig for truth.
And yeah, your jokes are so funny nowadays
You gotta be kiddin me
I have seen that post quoted several times over years and im not buying this. There is only this post and nothing else.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 02, 2015 04:45 PM |
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Ummm, didn't Erwan prety much accepted the responsibility, and more or less said himself the whole reason Ashan is like it is, it's because of his "design vision"?
If you listen to interview with Stevie, he said Ashan is his baby, and that is made by his vision, and that if you don't like it, noone can force you to. He also said that he pretty much disregards all complaints about artistic design, story etc., and only realy take seriously gameplay related complaints...
I guess that's prety much it. The master has sopken himself ...
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
