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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Unit tiers (Core/Elite/Champions) vs Levels
Thread: Unit tiers (Core/Elite/Champions) vs Levels This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
kko
kko


Hired Hero
posted August 15, 2014 04:34 AM

Unit tiers (Core/Elite/Champions) vs Levels

So Heroes 7, unlike older versions I've played seems to have a concept of unit tiers (Core, Elite and Champion units, with upgrades) as opposed to (?) unit levels, like well known level 1 - 7 (with upgrades) units from Heroes 3.

Does anyone know how the details of how it's supposed to work, and how it differs from unit levels?

I read in another thread that each faction will have two champion unit types and you will be able to build just one or the other (like in Heroes 4). What about the other tiers?
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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted August 15, 2014 05:35 AM

kko said:
So Heroes 7, unlike older versions I've played seems to have a concept of unit tiers (Core, Elite and Champion units, with upgrades) as opposed to (?) unit levels, like well known level 1 - 7 (with upgrades) units from Heroes 3.

Does anyone know how the details of how it's supposed to work, and how it differs from unit levels?

I read in another thread that each faction will have two champion unit types and you will be able to build just one or the other (like in Heroes 4). What about the other tiers?


H6 and CoH already done it... actualy rather well

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kko
kko


Hired Hero
posted August 15, 2014 06:26 AM

how does it work?

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Nelgirith
Nelgirith


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted August 15, 2014 08:54 AM
Edited by Nelgirith at 08:55, 15 Aug 2014.

kko said:
how does it work?

It works exactly like the previous Heroes, except that the units of the same tier have the same strength ... theoretically.

Instead of having a scale of power :
1 < 2 < 3 < 4 < 5 < 6 < 7 < 8

You have a scale like this :
(1 = 2 = 3) < (4 = 5 = 6) < (7 = 8)

Nothing spectacular. It's just done to avoid having a huge gap of power between lowest level creatures and highest ones.

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted August 15, 2014 09:18 AM

In h6 it was like:

3/3/3-5/5/5-7, and it was terribly imbalanced as cores could easily take out elites and champions, in terms of strength and weekly growth, getting hordes of cores was far better than advancing your city
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 15, 2014 09:22 AM

LizardWarrior said:
In h6 it was like:

3/3/3-5/5/5-7, and it was terribly imbalanced as cores could easily take out elites and champions, in terms of strength and weekly growth, getting hordes of cores was far better than advancing your city


There is no such thing as H6 as there is no such thing as DBGT

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted August 15, 2014 09:23 AM
Edited by Dave_Jame at 09:33, 15 Aug 2014.

LizardWarrior said:
In h6 it was like:

3/3/3-5/5/5-7, and it was terribly imbalanced as cores could easily take out elites and champions, in terms of strength and weekly growth, getting hordes of cores was far better than advancing your city

This was mostly thanks to those god damned town conversion and creature pool features. Both of wich are now gone. And if Healing is also remade, in such a way that basic spell can't ressurect creatures, or atleast not so easylly, this system will be great, much better then the old one.

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Thanir
Thanir


Adventuring Hero
posted August 15, 2014 09:30 AM
Edited by Thanir at 09:36, 15 Aug 2014.

Yes, in retrospect this was one of the best new features in Heroes 6 although as pointed out by LizardWarrior and Dave_Jame not implemented that well because of some of the other problems with H6. But it works really good to better balance the huge power gab between the level 1 and level 7 creatures you had in the previous games.

It should also make the balancing of the game and its factions easier for the developers because you have three distinct tiers for which you can set specific limitations to strength, growth and abilities. You can then balance each of the three tiers in relation to the other two and to those of other factions and don't have to balance every unit individually.
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malax83
malax83


Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
posted August 15, 2014 09:35 AM

LizardWarrior said:
In h6 it was like:

3/3/3-5/5/5-7, and it was terribly imbalanced as cores could easily take out elites and champions, in terms of strength and weekly growth, getting hordes of cores was far better than advancing your city


That s why H6 is a waste of time.

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Moriak71
Moriak71


Hired Hero
posted August 15, 2014 10:26 AM

Dave_Jame said:
LizardWarrior said:
In h6 it was like:

3/3/3-5/5/5-7, and it was terribly imbalanced as cores could easily take out elites and champions, in terms of strength and weekly growth, getting hordes of cores was far better than advancing your city

This was mostly thanks to those god damned town conversion and creature pool features. Both of wich are now gone. And if Healing is also remade, in such a way that basic spell can't ressurect creatures, or atleast not so easylly, this system will be great, much better then the old one.


I actually liked the Resurrect spell from H3. You had to be expert in Earth Magic to really resurrect the unit (not dead after the battle)

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted August 15, 2014 10:37 AM

LizardWarrior said:
In h6 it was like:

3/3/3-5/5/5-7, and it was terribly imbalanced as cores could easily take out elites and champions, in terms of strength and weekly growth, getting hordes of cores was far better than advancing your city


They didn't carefully balance it; but one of the main goals they had was to reduce the dominance of top-tier creatures. They more than succeeded there, that's for sure.

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Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted August 15, 2014 10:50 AM

malax83 said:
LizardWarrior said:
In h6 it was like:

3/3/3-5/5/5-7, and it was terribly imbalanced as cores could easily take out elites and champions, in terms of strength and weekly growth, getting hordes of cores was far better than advancing your city


That s why H6 is a waste of time.

Well, if you could build the champion dwelling early-on (you did not need any elite or core dwellings to do this), you could amass quite a big number of champions. A weekly growth of 5 champs per town is quite something. And don't forget that core creature growth was not that high and benefited hardly from building citadel/castle.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 15, 2014 11:23 AM

You have to make a difference between the Tier system in HVI and the tier system in general.

First and foremost it's an organizational tool to allow hero skills/spells/abilities to influence PART of their army only (other than via shooter/flier/melee-walker distinction).

Single units can be VERY different from each other, and between all the hero specials and production plusses, not even HVI could get everything equal.

That's obviously impossible, and because it IS impossible, I can't imagine it will be even tried.

So I wouldn't worry too much about uniformity.

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted August 15, 2014 12:28 PM

I'm not too worried about Unit Tiers. H6 was heavily critized, but the overhealing and overpresence of Core units was more a matter of terrible balance than the system itself.

Galaad said:
LizardWarrior said:
In h6 it was like:

3/3/3-5/5/5-7, and it was terribly imbalanced as cores could easily take out elites and champions, in terms of strength and weekly growth, getting hordes of cores was far better than advancing your city


There is no such thing as H6 as there is no such thing as DBGT

If this isn't a WIN...
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted August 15, 2014 12:57 PM

Even in H6, one of the three core/elites was of higher power than the other two. It just looked more uniform than it was because people saw all three being in the same tier and also because traditionally weak units no longer fell like flies. Goblins have always been cannon fodder and yet they were in the same tier as maulers.

They pose a serious threat to champions which I didn't quite like. There were two reasons: One, the fact that they could be amassed to ridiculous amounts due to conversion. By the time champions joined the fray, cores could be the dominant force. Second, cores had some crazy abilities that were too potent for a core army. Double attack and heal(resurrection) comes to mind..

Sure, it was nice for cores to be relevant throughout the game but I never wanted them so strong that they'd easily overwhelm elites and champions. The high tiers did pitiful damage and champions at least should be powerhouses to make them worth building. Perhaps part of the problem was that there was no might attack stat on the units.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 15, 2014 01:06 PM

Yes, the fact that all units had attack 0, but a defense higher than 0, means, that instead of a champion dealing something like double its actual damage value to a core - like it used to be -, it would deal LESS than its actual damage value, which added up considering the massively higher HPs of Cores.

Sucked badly.

Moreover, defense wasn't subtracted from attack. Instead defense was a modifier after applying hero attack, so defense was more like an absolute modifier - high defense GUARANTEES low damage, which is also not good.

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted August 15, 2014 01:08 PM

I guess we can expect changes in Attack/Defense/Damage formula for Heroes 7?
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Thanir
Thanir


Adventuring Hero
posted August 15, 2014 01:55 PM

Elvin said:
Even in H6, one of the three core/elites was of higher power than the other two. It just looked more uniform than it was because people saw all three being in the same tier and also because traditionally weak units no longer fell like flies. Goblins have always been cannon fodder and yet they were in the same tier as maulers.

They pose a serious threat to champions which I didn't quite like. There were two reasons: One, the fact that they could be amassed to ridiculous amounts due to conversion. By the time champions joined the fray, cores could be the dominant force. Second, cores had some crazy abilities that were too potent for a core army. Double attack and heal(resurrection) comes to mind..

Sure, it was nice for cores to be relevant throughout the game but I never wanted them so strong that they'd easily overwhelm elites and champions. The high tiers did pitiful damage and champions at least should be powerhouses to make them worth building. Perhaps part of the problem was that there was no might attack stat on the units.


While I like the three tier system I agree with you that the core creatures in H6 were way too powerful especially in comparison to the other two tiers. But this would have been easily balanceable if they would have done any major balancing in H6 at all. This whole problem with the core units being way too strong was clearly evident after playing only a few games. I was really suprised that such an obvious flaw had made it through the launch of the game and that even after the launch of H6 nothing got changed in this regard.
It would be interesting to know if nobody who tested the game brought this up or if feedback regarding this problem was simply ignored.
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Understanding is a three-edged sword. Your side, their side, and the truth.

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted August 15, 2014 01:59 PM

Thanir said:
While I like the three tier system I agree with you that the core creatures in H6 were way too powerful especially in comparison to the other two tiers. But this would have been easily balanceable if they would have done any major balancing in H6 at all. This whole problem with the core units being way too strong was clearly evident after playing only a few games. I was really suprised that such an obvious flaw had made it through the launch of the game and that even after the launch of H6 nothing got changed in this regard.
It would be interesting to know if nobody who tested the game brought this up or if feedback regarding this problem was simply ignored.

That had more to do with the fact that the coding was such a mess that most balancing resulted in bugs. This had been adressed since beta. It had less to do with unwillingness to change and balance the game and more with unwillingness to further break an already fractured game.
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flonembourg
flonembourg


Known Hero
posted August 15, 2014 02:06 PM

Storm-Giant said:
I guess we can expect changes in Attack/Defense/Damage formula for Heroes 7?



you guess right!

Solid mechanichs is maybe (with good A.I) the most important thing in a Heroes game.

More important than the fact there is no griffin in haven or swordbearer is or not a legit champion... I must confess these discussions about creatures BUG me.

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