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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: More unit mixing!
Thread: More unit mixing!
dkolb
dkolb


Promising
Known Hero
Nay Nay and Aslan Protector
posted August 16, 2014 02:53 AM
Edited by dkolb at 02:55, 16 Aug 2014.

More unit mixing!

One of the biggest simplest joys I had playing HOMM2 and HOMM3 was how ragtag my army could end up being.
Armies featuring evil eyes and crusaders. Hydras and Archdevils could hang out. And even the computer had fun with it. I remember laughing hysterically when I assaulted a Rampart that had 1 skeleton and 3 boar riders guarding it. Even some neutral stacks sometimes featured a mixture of units.

The different creatures were alot of fun and sometimes creatures from different towns really synergized well with others. Minotaur Kings were a staple of my necropolis army if I could get them.

There was obviously a downside to morale due to mixing creatures (especially necropolis) but it was certainly was feasible and alot of fun to do. Especially since you couldn't convert towns, in many ways it was a benefit you to at least mix some.  

Now that is all but completely gone and a fun (and sometimes hilarious) part of the game is gone too. Now 99% of the time you will be stuck with the same 7 units that come with the town you start with and almost all strategy involves using those units.

The first reason is due to the ability to convert towns.
This isn't in itself a bad thing but it lends itself to just having a giant army of the same units instead of a more interesting but weaker mix of units. In HOMM3 it was a stroke of luck to capture the same town you started with, but in HOMM6 it doesn't matter what town you take.

The second reason is due to pretty much every single creature encountered in the wild hating your guts and wanting to kill you.
Especially in HOMM5 and HOMM6 pretty much every creature is programmed to either attack you no matter what or rarely to run away. It doesn't matter if you spend points in diplomacy everything hates you and wants to eat your face no matter whether it is 2 Griffins or even hundreds of Nuns will attack you and fight to the death simply for being near them. Not only that even when there is more than one unit in Homm5-6 they are almost always from the same faction.

The most important reason units can't mix is because of stupid racial abilities. There I said it. Racial abilities have gotten completely out of control to the point that even if you did mix creatures, half of the creatures won't receive the benefits of your hero such as blood rage. The disadvantages of mixing units are so much higher than the advatages it simply is not able to be done. And in my opinion the game is less fun for it.

Sure it's fun in that you can play a certain style if you choose Inferno than if you play as Haven, but HOMM3 made it so you could choose your own style you could mix and match and develop your own strategy without being more or less forced to play a certain way.

These last two games take themselves too seriously like they would probably say that having a naga and a pikeman wouldn't fit within the world of Asha or would be an insult to the dragon god or some dumb reason. The storyline for HOMM 5-6 is contrived and terrible. They need to get over themselves and make the game more fun.

Not only should their be no penalties for mixing units their should be perks.
I'd love to see combination creatures.
Someone who has a necropolis and an inferno should be able to produce Nightmares.
Someone with a castle and a necropolis should be able to produce death knights. Wizards and Orcs could create like a mechanical cyclops or a war machine or something.

The point is that it's fun to mix the different factions units and HOMM7 should let us do it.



____________
"...once you bought your first green dragon, there was already a necromancer with six or seven boners out and about-Lord_Wook"

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 16, 2014 10:38 AM

I'll agree on most of this (there should be some disadvantages for mixing troops, but not nearly as severe as at the moment), and with the addendum that several of the racials in H5 were made racial in a very arbitrary manner, I mean there's no reason Artificier, Avenger and elemental chains couldn't have been made universal.

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
posted August 16, 2014 11:12 AM

Town conversion won't be in h7, however I don't know if the racials will be global.
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flonembourg
flonembourg


Known Hero
posted August 16, 2014 12:27 PM

i'm with you on the "mixed creaures" theme.

The fact is morale penalty should be  the only downside of mixing creatures.
Racial abilities should apply to all creatures because is more a hero ability who should work for every creaures under the command of the Hero.

Mixing creatures make the game less repetitive, unpredictable....

And more replayability is always good for a turn based strategy game.

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted August 16, 2014 01:14 PM

This is a topic I raised several times here. I really wish we could get some of the old feeling of mixing troops, it adds variety to the game too.

Heroes 7 won't have town conversion, that's a start...
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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted August 16, 2014 01:33 PM

No town conversion is a disaster. Whoever gets a nearby castle the same faction than his will win. It's not a strategy game if the key to victory is gotten by luck alone.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 16, 2014 01:51 PM

H6 town conversion was an even bigger disaster, and at least this time they're including a RMG and map editor off the bat so people can come up with their own stuff instead of being stuck with a dozen or so maps.

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted August 17, 2014 01:03 AM

Quote:
Whoever gets a nearby castle the same faction than his will win. It's not a strategy game if the key to victory is gotten by luck alone.


Only if one-faction troops have a significant advantage. and exactly what is asked in this post, as I understand it, is that mixed-facton armies shall be capable of being equal to one-fation armies. A wish which I can second and to which there are a ton of possible ways, I think.

I personally would like true faction synergies, maybe even with players being able to build single dwellings of other factions in the town with certain requirements met or with some racials-connections even.

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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted August 17, 2014 02:32 AM

Jiriki9 said:

Only if one-faction troops have a significant advantage. and exactly what is asked in this post, as I understand it, is that mixed-facton armies shall be capable of being equal to one-fation armies.


The advantage is the ability to merge 2 armies together into one that is huge. As long as the map has terrain to cover, it's not apparent. But once its time for the final show down, expect those two armies merged into one for double the size to win almost 100 % of the time.

I'm pretty sure I would defeat anyone here 100 % of the time if we did duels with my army being twice as big as yours and theirs.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted August 17, 2014 02:39 AM

Except you're clearly misunderstanding the idea, which isn't to make two armies into one but to stop preventing single heroes from mixing troops from two or more factions.

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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted August 17, 2014 03:11 AM

kayna said:

I'm pretty sure I would defeat anyone here 100 % of the time if we did duels with my army being twice as big as yours and theirs.


Theoretically only. I've played online for several years and getting two towns of same faction is at the opposite of cake walk.

At least in H2/H3 the cost of building same town twice was prohibitive and if you tried to do so, the other player caught you pants down.

So no, this is theory only. Supposing you play decent maps, where interactivity between players is possible from the start. You simply can't afford, neither have the time of double build.

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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted August 17, 2014 03:38 AM

Sal said:


Theoretically only. I've played online for several years and getting two towns of same faction is at the opposite of cake walk.

At least in H2/H3 the cost of building same town twice was prohibitive and if you tried to do so, the other player caught you pants down.

So no, this is theory only. Supposing you play decent maps, where interactivity between players is possible from the start. You simply can't afford, neither have the time of double build.


You bring a good argument, but still flawed. Yes, let's talk in pratice. In pratice, it always depends. It depends on the size of the map. It depends on how the fight goes with your opponent. It also depends if you took hold of a town already build halfway , or even fully as well! So the crushing luck factor is still there, just not all the time, as you say.

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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted August 17, 2014 03:45 AM

Not really. We talk multiplayer, right?

In MP all is about speed: how fast you creep, then develop town and hero. If you are going to divide your economy into a double build, and this early, you will have nothing to defend with when opponent comes. This is the reality of MP gaming.

It does not depends of map because we assume we play maps where interactivity is possible from first day, otherwise I don't see why you play vs human. And if the other can attack you from first day, as it should be, I see 0 chance to build a double town. Mix troops from diplomacy/joiners, ok.

Double build, never saw. Unless you are playing vs a koala.

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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted August 17, 2014 04:03 AM

Sal said:


Double build, never saw.


*sigh*. As I was saying, it always depends, and the size of the map + taking a fort of your own faction already halfway build if not fully build is also possible.

I'll be honest with you, I haven't played Heroes that often, at least not the old ones. I did but it was a very long time ago and I found the game fun but wayyyyy too time consuming.

But I did play normal games. A decent bunch. Now seriously, god damn seriously, write me with a straight face that you never, ever, ever took a castle of your own faction that was already halfway or fully build that allowed you to hire more units because it also came with a capitol or some snow that also gives you more money.




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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted August 17, 2014 04:36 AM

I only played H2/H3/H4 and it is impossible to find a town half/fully build, as maps are tested before submitting, there is no black magic.

Ok, whatsoever...

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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted August 17, 2014 05:14 AM

So I say it always depends and you speak of maps with only 2 players in it.

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted August 17, 2014 10:22 AM

I do get your point, kayna. I, as I must say, did not play that much multiplayer in Homm, except H3 Hotseat(which I did play massively! H3 in my eyes was the best, most fun hotseat game ever made!). But on both multiplayer and single player, in HoMM it is not necessarily just about the "final battle". Building upt 2 armies of different factions, swarming your enemy/enemies and, finally, weakening the last enemy town or hero with the first and killing them with the second army is a  strategy that did work very often on H3!
And on the final battle: HoMM is a game where strength is mainly created through reaching higher tiers, and especially the top tier (cannot speak about H6 here, since I did not play it, but in the other games). And through that, an army having 2 or even more stacks different tier 7 units can be really powerful!
And to the whole luck thing: HoMM always has a certain luck factor in it, and I really do like it because it makes the game more versatile. if I want to play without luck, I play chess. but, anyway, what makes a player good and playing interesting in my eyes is using that which luck (or bad luck) gives you best.
And that way now lets return to the original post and town conversion, which spawned this discussion. To me, town conversion is simply making it too simple and too fixed. I would much rather see faction interacting, which actually would make you capable of taking advantage of having 2 different factions castles.

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