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The prophet first saw a luminous cloud coming from the north; from a distance it seemed a heavy cloud fringed with light and some intense brilliancy in the centre thereof, bright as gold, yet in perpetual motion as the flames of a fire. Within that heavenly fire he began gradually to distinguish four living beings with bodies as men, yet with four faces each: a human face in front, but an eagles face behind; a lion's face to the left and an ox's face to the right. Though approaching, yet their knees did not bend in their march, straight and stiff they remained; and for feet they had the hoofs of oxen, shod as it were with shining brass. They had four arms, two to each shoulder, and attached along each arm a wing. Of these four winged arms two were outstretched above, and two were let down and covered their bodies. These four living beings stood together, facing in four opposite directions, and between them were four great wheels, each wheel being double, so that it could roll forward or sideways. Thus this angelic chariot, in whatever of the four directions it moved, always presented the same aspect.

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Stevie said:

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Biblical symbolism would be very much criticized. Believe me, I know, I'm confronted with it almost every day.

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JollyJoker said:

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Elvin, it's not so much about wanting monsters, but wanting CHAMPIONS (which justifies the question, whether doubling the number of Champion creatures is such a clever move). REAL Champions.

Now if you look at HoMM 2 - no Problem. Best creature Haven: 65 HPs, Titan: 300, Black Dragon: 300, Phoenix: 100, Ghost Dragon: 150, Cyclops: 80. Very different, very differently balanced.

HoMM 3 changed things, making everything a lot more alike, Champions ranging frpm 200 - 300 points, and that has been the system since then. Cavalry has been the best human unit, and Angel was a good one on top of that.

Priest had 80 HPs in HoMM 5, if I'm not wrong, which was the best human foot ever, in terms of HPs.
With that in mind, and knowing that we have Angels and Titans and a Magic BIRD and the Swordbearer as Champions:

What would you say, how many HPs should those 4 have?

Here's my math:

I start with giving Titan 300 HPs. It's a construct, it's big, and there should be maneuvering space for HPs. I would allow 200 HPs for the magic Bird. He could have LESS, but not much, giving him some aura, that would maybe halve physical damage.
Giving an Angel 250 HPs wouldn't sound so bad.
Now for the swordbearer.
Since Angels are the children of Elrath, even the upgraded Swordbearer CANNOT have as many HPs as the basic Angel - that would make no sense whatsoever.
If you factor in a massive armour for good HPs, the guy would crawl over the battlefield
except, of course, they invented power armor and genetic enhancement in the seven cities and the Wolf Duchy stole the blueprints, and the Swordbearers are Ashan Marines, Order of Elrath's Fists, or some such.
But keeping him AGILE, armour can only be light, and 120 HPs was conceivable. Maybe even 130. 150, however, was a stretch already, and 150 HPs would not be great, especially when considering that it must be a VERY mundane unit.
You would also have to consider, that if the flat growth bonus of HoMM 6 was used, even if a production of 1 Angel and 2 Swordbearers looked fine, 3 vs. 4 looked bad. 3 vs. 1 on the other hand cries ELITE all over the place.
Can he make up in other stats? Against ELRATH'S CHILDREN? Nah.
So, there is no other way to balance that EXCEPT via numbers, and that doesn't compute - elite stats with elite growth = ELITE.

Any other take on it?

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JollyJoker said:

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So, there is no other way to balance that EXCEPT via numbers, and that doesn't compute - elite stats with elite growth = ELITE.

Any other take on it?

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alcibiades said:

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JollyJoker said:

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So, there is no other way to balance that EXCEPT via numbers, and that doesn't compute - elite stats with elite growth = ELITE.

Any other take on it?

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I agree with your analysis also, but like flonembourg says also, there is another variable which can be used to control it apart from growth, which is availability. For me, that is the one feature which can possibly make the Swordsmaster a valid alternative to the Angel (apart from them giving him unrealistic stats which you cover very well in your analysis and which would just be lame), and that would be if his dwelling is so cheap compared to Angel dwelling that he becomes available much sooner.

Now we don't know much about H7 town structure yet, so we can only compare to older games again, but I think in most factions you'd buy level 7 dwelling week 2 or 3 (right?), so that would mean Swordbearers should be available realistically very early in the game to make a difference.

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JollyJoker said:

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Elite Stats + Elite Growth + Elite Costs = ELITE

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Stevie said:

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Great analysis JJ, as usual. Guess that's why you're the insider. Now that you've finished preaching to the choir, can you state your position on the apparently contradictory themes of Wolf Dutchy and Holy Empire? We'd much appreciate your enlightening words.

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JollyJoker said:

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Well, why is it contradictory? In the Wolf Duchy the Holy Church simply hasn't that much power, and it makes sense that the Church and the Angels generally lost a lot of credibility after the events in HoMM 6.

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