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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: A heroes game without knights and elves?
Thread: A heroes game without knights and elves? This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
AnkVaati
AnkVaati


Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
posted August 23, 2014 07:23 PM

Poll Question:
A heroes game without knights and elves?

Wouldn't the Heroes series be better of without Haven and Sylvan? The thought struck my mind today. Many of the problematic developments to the franchise during the last decade have been caused by an urge to move the series closer to mainstream fantasy games such as Warcraft, Warhammer and LotR, presumably to stratify younger and less dedicated customers.

Both the Knight and the Sorceress factions are core factions to the franchise, but the Sylvan faction of Heroes V was so snowized with stereotypes that I refuse to recognize it as a continuation of the later. The original Sorceress faction was more of a Fey-centred magical faction based mythology than your average elfish cliché. Heroes V had the stereotypic Goody Two–shoes noble knights representing Haven and stereotypic Goody Two–shoes tree-hugging elves representing Sylvan. We had a break from Sylvan during Heroes VI, but according to all sources, they are destined to return due to the somewhat suspicious poll on Ubi's website.

Which leads me straight to the question: Couldn't we do better without both of these towns? Perhaps if there weren't towns to satisfy people's prejudices, both the story-writers and the map making community would have to get more creative and really develop something that is original, and not blatantly ripped of from the mainstream commercial fantasy gaming establishment. Perhaps that could bring the feeling of originality from the real Heroes games (I-IV) back.

Responses:
Yes! No more Goody Two–shoes!
No! I like stereotypical "good" societies!
None of the above.
 View Results!

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted August 23, 2014 07:29 PM

I believe that tradition aside, heroes would look a lot different if people voted for the 3 factions they want least. Haven would probably be amongst them.
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 23, 2014 07:32 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 19:33, 23 Aug 2014.

H1-H4 had stereotypical good societies. In H5 they sort-of continued that trend, except whoever wrote the script was mad about it and had a bitter childhood, so they made them a caricature of snobs to the point that it wasn't even believable. Castle and Life were both cool factions.
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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted August 23, 2014 07:50 PM

Cutting out any faction no matter how goody twoshoes or theatrically evil they are, will hardly benefit the game. Yes, the setting is kind of bland and sofar the characters/story looks like it was written by a 6-year old, but those can be easyly rectified if they hire some proper writers. H3 and H4 both proove that even in not interconnected campains deep character development is possible.

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RMZ1989
RMZ1989


Supreme Hero
posted August 23, 2014 08:12 PM

To be honest, even though I am not huge fan of Humans and Elves(as I like dark/evil factions) I really want them to stay in the game as I like killing them.
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alex_yakub
alex_yakub


Famous Hero
posted August 23, 2014 08:15 PM

Huge NOPE. I love Sylvan too much. And Haven looks not that bad in HoMM7.

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted August 23, 2014 08:53 PM

A heroes game without silly elves and marry sue light puking knights? Sure. A game without Sorceress/Rampart town and Knight/Castle town? No

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Dwarfurious
Dwarfurious


Adventuring Hero
posted August 23, 2014 09:00 PM

Yes please, sometimes it feels like Elves are more common than humans in fantasy these days and often take up the role of critical plot development.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 23, 2014 09:04 PM

LizardWarrior said:
A heroes game without silly elves and marry sue light puking knights? Sure. A game without Sorceress/Rampart town and Knight/Castle town? No

+1

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AnkVaati
AnkVaati


Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
posted August 23, 2014 11:01 PM

LizardWarrior said:
A heroes game without silly elves and marry sue light puking knights? Sure. A game without Sorceress/Rampart town and Knight/Castle town? No
While I share this view, I have the feeling that we won't get those back until Ubi sells their rights to the game off. The best we can hope for is that the cliché innovations gets less and less space inside Heroes.

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PhoenixMK
PhoenixMK


Hired Hero
Burn baby, BURN!!!
posted August 23, 2014 11:18 PM

Humans and Elves are generic nations in most fantasy games and yes, that's boring but I can not imagine HoMM games without them.

Humans - perhaps the simplest of all races. Human factions have undergone a lot of changes in each game of the series. Their units are flexible and their abilities require good tactical maneuvers.

Elves - an iconic race, beloved by many no matter if they are "good" or "evil". Their units are distinctive, powerful and swift. They have а nickname "flower sniffers" (c) by Agrael.

The game will lose a lot if they are excluded. So my answer is NO! Both races are an important and inseparable part of the HoMM universe.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted August 25, 2014 09:43 AM

Whenever I read about Haven, I get the feeling I'm among a minority that actually likes the faction throughout the series so far. And while they were the "goody-two-shoes" faction in Heroes V, they also had a split off that was ... not so good. The red Haven faction was more like the inquisition, which could hardly be considered good.

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VOKIALBG
VOKIALBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted August 25, 2014 11:08 AM

You are not alone.
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JeremiahEmo
JeremiahEmo


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
posted August 25, 2014 11:20 AM

Big No. I love Sylvan the way it currently is. It is perfect.
Sorceress faction was the most boring faction in H1 and H2 for me. It was the faction I ignored the most when I choose which faction to play. H3 was a huge upgrade but I was back to ignoring that faction at H4. Then at H5, they finally added the right mix.
Forest faction was from absolute worst to one of best faction for me.


Also, I can't imagine an Elven faction that is not Dark Elves that's not a goody-too-shoes. They have to be a goody-goody faction.

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blob2
blob2


Legendary Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted August 25, 2014 12:23 PM
Edited by blob2 at 12:30, 25 Aug 2014.

Well it all comes down to personal tastes. The fact that someone dislikes the current concept/design/line-up of the above mentioned factions does not justify their removal from the game. Besides even if a faction is usually connected with being "good" this affinity can always be changed. You can have Elves like in The Witcher games: runaway brigands and thieves who don't have their own country (well, at least some of them), and are oppressed by humans, and thus fight with them wherever they have a chance. Or a faction of elves that stopped worshiping nature, but instead started to abuse it with technology or magic, for instance by creating mutants etc.

Nevertheless, devs don't have room for such experiments, you know how Forge turned out (even if it was canon). They won't try to annoy many fans with this kind of experiments: they don't have enough money, time and trust for such things.

If you ask me, I like the Elven/Sylvan faction, two of my favorite units usually find their home in their cities: Unicorns and Green/Gold Dragons.

It's a bit different thing with Castle/Haven. They're not mandatory for me, but it's hard to think of a game like Heroes without such a faction...

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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted August 25, 2014 01:46 PM

well they are sensing that we had enough of "light" with the haven faction so they are taking the wolf duchy approach which is really cool and justifies the direwolf unit.
as for sylvan they were too sterotypical in heroes V  but we all know sylvan can be more than that, so i want it to have the chance to shine. for me stronghold should be up for consideration, not sylvan, since we didn't get our dose of trees in heroes 6.
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Danny
Danny


Famous Hero
posted August 25, 2014 01:50 PM

No, because I want Elves back. But I wish for a Heroes game without not only knights, but demons and undead as well. I know that will never happen as it seems every fantasy strategy game needs to have at least two of these...

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Sleeping_Sun
Sleeping_Sun


Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
posted August 25, 2014 01:51 PM

Knights and elves (or rather human and fay/nature factions) are, in a way, a tradition in Heroes games, thus it will be difficult to remove them from H7, H8 or any other future game as long as Ubi is concerned. Why? Because they have limited themselves with (1) lore: every dragon god needs to be present more or less in the game through his/her own worshippers (check THEIR M&M branded games); (2) because they have also limited themselves with the number of factions that exist in Ashan, and that is 9 (I also believe they said that there will be no new factions, but I cannot remember where I read that, I might be wrong). And (3) Ubi has apparently limited themselves to H3 factions. In other words, they will just feature different versions of the same factions in every following game (recycling), as long as it is settled on Ashan and Thallan, I guess. H3 being favourite of many people seems a safe bet for them. Unlike them, NWC has experimented with factions (sometimes it worked sometimes not - Forge town) and were capable to bring some dose of freshness to the old factions by changing them. E.g. Sorceresses (faction) eventually became druids, then they became more fay/mythical-like (Look NWC's H5).

With that being said, I believe that we are more or less stuck with the same factions for the time being. This might be the reason why they don't want to feature all 9 factions in a single game (besides the money, etc.). What would they add in expansion if they already decided that no new factions are planned? (S)Ylath-based faction of free city(es) might be a good faction to add to the series, but Ubi is simply limiting themselves with their bad decisions. A pity really, but the world goes on and so does this franchise. Still, there is a thing of H3 Fortress fans and possibly Conflux fans wanting their factions to return... one day...

Regardless of my rant, let's return to your poll options.
Option 1) & Option 2): It is not the point of keeping the same faction as they are, nor removing them for what they are. The point is that each faction, in a new Heroes game, is supposed to be a fresh take on a particular theme/ideology (race/gods is Ubi's focus). They should change and alter factions, make them more interesting, while still leaving the factions with the spirits of their past incarnations, in order to recognise the familiarity and the continuity, but they should also add new things so that players can experience the freshness, and potential originality of the new factions.
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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted August 25, 2014 01:51 PM

LizardWarrior said:
A heroes game without silly elves and marry sue light puking knights? Sure. A game without Sorceress/Rampart town and Knight/Castle town? No

+1

Knight/Castle town had a charm that Ubisoft Haven lacks...
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Fal-Parsi
Fal-Parsi


Hired Hero
posted August 25, 2014 03:10 PM

Roland was GOOD, Archibald was EVIL; Tarnum was an EVIL paranoid and became a GOOD how-to-live teacher, M&M VII had an EVIL and a GOOD ending. I don't see any problem in having stereotypical sides in a Heroes game, it's part of its charm. Instead, I'm really tired of the shades of darkness thing.
A Heroes without humans would immediately lose my interest, I don't care that much for overused elves, though; no problem having them out of the game.

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