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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: 9 year old girl shoots instructor dead at gun range
Thread: 9 year old girl shoots instructor dead at gun range This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted August 27, 2014 10:09 PM

Stevie said:
A demarche based on the faulty reasoning of blaming the guns rather than the ones using them



So, the 9 years old girl is the one to blame? Or the shooted instrutor?

Sometimes I don't get it: are being ironic? or a REAL idiot?

Childs should not carry machine guns. (point)

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted August 27, 2014 10:22 PM

Oh I have seen plenty of guns, and never EVER do you give LIVE BULLETS to someone that hasn't used a gun before. WTF?? Stevie you have your head so far up in your you know that that LOL. Do you have any reasoning behind your thought except that "yes kids have loaded guns all the time but rarely they pull the trigger---"

Omg this world, this world...
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 27, 2014 10:45 PM

Stevie said:
Well said, fred. I don't see a problem with training kids into shooting and I am aware that someone with no knowledge on the issue is just gonna overreact. Stormy and others here probably didn't even see a gun in their life, and they surely don't understand the american "culture" on guns, so I get their reaction to what in reality is nothing more than an accident.

We must have read different posts then because from what I read, as someone who is very familiar with guns, he didnt say it was just a random accident, he said that kind of weapon should have not been given to a child of that age and even mentioned charges of manslaughter.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 28, 2014 12:01 AM

Yea, you must've read something else. He's clearly not condemning shooting from a fragile age.

fred79 said:
from personal experience, i have had my niece shoot an ar-15, and my uncle has had his daughter continually shoot firearms since she was 4. nobody has ever been hurt. she's actually shot a deer before.



You all overreact because you don't understand guns in the US. That's what I think. Sure, it's clear that the trainer was at fault and shouldn't have used live bullets, but you all proceed to demonize such local events like they're actually common practice.

Just my 2 cents.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 28, 2014 12:19 AM
Edited by artu at 00:20, 28 Aug 2014.

It's not just an accident, it's a very stupid thing to do, something that shouts "trouble" from a mile away and nobody except you calls it just a regular accident, as if someone fell down the stairs.

There is a gun thread already, most of us elaborated our thoughts in there. I was mostly anti-gun before because I thought having guns around could turn otherwise regular domestic fights into lethal ones. Husband going berserk etc etc.. Reading a scientific study Elodin linked there, showed clear evidence that was not the case. Right now, I think hunting rifles, revolvers and similar things are okay (I wouldn't buy them though) but if someone keeps this at home:



it's BS to call it protection. Yes, there is a gun culture in US but something being cultural doesn't automatically make it all right. Honor killings or harakiri are also cultural. Their gun industry "produces" that culture to sell more guns and Americans buy into it blindly, rationalizing the situation as if the rest of the world isn't doing quite well without the guns.

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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
posted August 28, 2014 12:31 AM

Neat.
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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted August 28, 2014 12:32 AM

meroe said:


1.  Dumb parents, giving a 9 year old the opportunity to shoot an Uzi.



Dumb parents? Even worse ; dumb laws that allows it in the first place.

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markkur
markkur


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted August 28, 2014 12:37 AM

I taught the use of firearms, gun-safety and I agree with the second amendment and all that but I strongly disagree with military weapons being considered..."sporting" weapons period. If a person needs an Thompson machine gun to hunt, they'd better make that person knit instead.

And I did instruct with a 22 rifle (without ammo at first meaning an intense focus on handling habits and handling habits over and over). Using anything else that actually fires a bullet is <imo> criminal negligence.

Military weapons are for the <ahem>...Military.

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted August 28, 2014 01:40 AM
Edited by Corribus at 01:41, 28 Aug 2014.

The parents may be dumb, but the shooting range and instructor share equal culpability. The should know what kinds of guns are appropriate for what ages to fire. They should be able to evaluate whether an individual is physically capable of firing a certain weapon.

I have nothing against children learning to fire a weapon, but I think there needs to be some common sense applied. I fired .22 rifles when I was about that age or maybe a pinch older. It would have been totally inappropriate for me (or any individual) to fire military weapons or the equivalent until the simpler rifles had been mastered.
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 28, 2014 02:07 AM

artu said:
There is a gun thread already, most of us elaborated our thoughts in there. I was mostly anti-gun before because I thought having guns around could turn otherwise regular domestic fights into lethal ones. Husband going berserk etc etc.. Reading a scientific study Elodin linked there, showed clear evidence that was not the case. Right now, I think hunting rifles, revolvers and similar things are okay (I wouldn't buy them though)


wow, elodin managed to convince someone
well, actually some of his arguments worked with me as well.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 28, 2014 02:20 AM

Well, it was rather the linked study itself. It covered many topics in detail and compared many countries, it was like a mini-book, a pdf link. I still think the right to own a gun and the recent level,  the gun culture of US has reached are very different topics though.

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Celfious
Celfious


Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
posted August 28, 2014 03:21 AM
Edited by Celfious at 03:47, 28 Aug 2014.

Storm-Giant said:
Give a 9 year old girl an Uzi.

America never cease to amaze me.
Ya we have people bigot mentalities here in America too. I am not perfect but I don't share that primitive nature either.

Oh I am not specifically saying people who talk about America or Americans are exercising bigotry, unless they specifically express their motives are from an automatic ****ing personal problem simply because of anothers cultural origin.



As far as handing a 9 year old a machine gun...  Pretty useless and stupid, dangerous, and I feel really bad for her, I hope she is not traumatized for life. It is not her fault.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted August 28, 2014 08:52 AM

So, Uzi at the age of 9, assault rifle probably comes at 10 or 11 and an ascending teenager qualifies for a minigun, most likely. That's the spirit!

It would be great if stupidity could kill itself but normally it also - or only - kills other people. It's debatable who is the greatest idiot in this case (quite a competition) but a single fatality seems rather merciful.

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somi
somi


Known Hero
posted August 28, 2014 11:21 AM
Edited by somi at 11:33, 28 Aug 2014.

Small kids should not be allowed to use weapons, or to be trained in using them. Laws should forbid use of weapon for small age kids (except some non lethal guns but i don't know how they are called in english, but again should also have some  age restriction).

To legally use a weapon a person should be older than age x(probably older than 16, or 18) go through psychological/medical testing and get a permission paper that he is sane and can go and get training to use a weapon (and only after that he can be legally a owner of a weapon and only use it on places that are made for it).

Use of automatic weapon (or other more heavy military weapons) should be illegal in any country for anyone (hack, it should be illegal for military also .


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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted August 28, 2014 12:46 PM

This is a classic case of "two wrongs don't make a right".

1. It is criminal to handle a machine gun to a child. This is true even in a country at war but even more when it's done for fun.

2. It is unexcusable that a government doesn't regulate this things based on tradition and culture but we know how strong the guns lobby really is in America.

We have the same problem here in Portugal but with Bull Fighting.
It's a dangerous and sadistic activity but the sucessive governments don't take meassures to end it because they think they will lose votes because even if more people are against it then for it, the addepts are more likely to change vote. It is sad but is how democracy works, like a business.

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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted August 28, 2014 03:51 PM

Maybe, but we also overprotect our kids, to the point that the majority of them will become physically incapable to stand to any natural danger, psychologically sociopath-dependents and discipline haters.

I am not saying that we should recreate a spartan like education, but our modern world is not so exempted of challenges requiring complex training and body or mind discipline. If weapons training is part of such education, ok.

If it is part of the "american" style only, which often consists on bragging about how great is their nation and how pitiful are others-argument based solely on military power-then a serious thing as training the discipline will lead to arrogance and selfishness.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 28, 2014 04:54 PM
Edited by Elvin at 16:55, 28 Aug 2014.

Just the facts.

- Guns are not inherently good or bad, they are just tools with a very specific purpose. To kill. Not to give warmth, transportation, light or entertainment, they are created to kill.

- Most humans are irresponsible or erratic one way or the other. Our thoughts and emotions are often in flux and we could do the absolute best or absolute worst in a single moment, without even thinking twice. All it takes is having the means to do it at that very moment. A unarmed harmless person in a bad moment is mostly harmless. An armed harmless person in a bad moment is an accident waiting to happen. A deadly one.

- Potential inner turbulence aside, there are mentally unhealthy people whose nature is not easy to discern. Oh, he used to look so calm and polite, he had such a warm and happy family, yada yada. Who'd have guessed?


I believe that we underestimate the responsibility that an instrument that can instantly take a life requires. Mainly because the purpose it serves is made far too easy. It's a split second decision and someone's life is changed forever. But how many prevented deaths or violence can make up for one single school massacre? Give a gun to a responsible, mature person and I will sleep safe. Give a gun to a messed up guy and my inner peace will dissipate. But who can partially and accurately be the judge of that? And how many unfit people will get access to a gun, one way or the other?
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 28, 2014 05:16 PM

Bearing arms is a right. Removal of such a right is not only wrong in and of itself, but there are negative effects on the population that imo outweigh the benefits. Sure, you don't have civilians that can kill each other, but you'll have a defenseless population, every tyrants dream. Speaking of tyrants, Hitler, Stalin and Mao - all of them banned the guns and look where that lead to.

A government must fear its population, not the population fear the government. If you wanna disarm a population of 200 mil. just because a kid killed his instructor and there were some theatre shootings, you seriously gotta be kidding yourself.

Washington said: "From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable... the very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good."

I understand that guns make killing very easy, but I'd rather have that with all the accidents and school shootings rather than feeling defenseless and without the means to do anything. You'd only make killing a bit harder, but trust me the killing won't stop. You don't need a gun to kill someone.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 28, 2014 05:21 PM

Stevie said:
Bearing arms is a right.

Wasn't that referring to a militia rather than a normal citizen?
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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
posted August 28, 2014 05:24 PM

If every American has the right to bear arms, then they are denied the excuse that they lacked the means to confront tyranny and oppression.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny

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