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| Thread: Are we on the brink of general war between Europe and Russia? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted September 01, 2014 07:31 PM |
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Edited by Sal at 20:08, 01 Sep 2014.
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To return to the OP question, Europe does not have the army or money to fight Russia, and even if it had, nobody wants a nuclear war so is never going to happen.
In worst case, not for so little as Ukraine.
So far, America, Russia, China-and from a different perspective, N.Korea and Israel-have a free card to do whatever they want, wherever they want. Naturally, game rules obligated, others will cringe and play offended, but in the end, they are granted with total physical impunity.
At this game, China aside, Russia is the most prudent and probably the most entitled to act as it does: Ukraine's largest ethnic minority IS russian, so the comparison with Mexico isn't very accurate.
And we shouldn't forget to mention China's ability to achieve same or even better results without moving militarily a finger.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted September 01, 2014 07:36 PM |
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Lol, alci, really?
I expected better of you.
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Zenofex
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Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 01, 2014 08:23 PM |
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Quote:
At this game, China aside, Russia is the most prudent and probably the most entitled to act as it does: Ukraine's largest ethnic minority IS russian, so the comparison with Mexico isn't very accurate.
I'm talking being a Great Power about having an ally government forcefully replaced with a hostile one right next to your borders. In the 60s the US freaked out because the USSR dropped a few missiles in Cuba (no matter that there were US missiles in, say, Turkey) - using blizz's terminology because the Cubans voluntarily decided to join the communist block - can't see why is it so hard to comprehend that the Russians have no reasons not to freak out when they get surrounded by potentially hostile bases and missile shields from all sides.
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted September 01, 2014 08:32 PM |
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I got what you meant, just underlining that in this precise case, the fact that there are millions of Russians in Ukraine is big part of the equation.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 01, 2014 08:35 PM |
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Of course, those missles (ones in Turkey) officially "didnt exist" and in the end both US and Russia agreed to removing them, Russia publicly and US secretly, since the existence of the missles were denied to begin with. We can again see, while US also cares about public opinion and appearance, Russia is more direct and doesnt bother much with the PR.
Do you think this is again mostly about the missles, Zeno? I think the alliance of the country itself is the core issue, rather than a defensive military line.
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 02, 2014 08:46 PM |
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Not only missiles. Without Ukraine, Russia loses one of its last buffer states in Europe. It is already in a disadvantage in case of a conventional war and an eventual missile shield deployed that close to its mainland will effectively disable a huge part of its nuclear arsenal located there (except perhaps the newest missiles but they are a small number of the total amount). It is always possible that some US missiles will just "appear" one spit away from the Russian border too, without anyone knowing (although it's not likely that this will happen exactly in Ukraine, in the near future at least, given even the most pro-Western outcome of the crisis). And of course, the Moscow crew probably is not totally indifferent to what happens to the Russian-speakers in Eastern Ukraine but in the long run they are probably willing to sacrifice as many as needed to prevent a bigger strategic threat - something which is quite normal for the Russian approach to such issues for centuries.
You are right, the US is far more willing to maintain good PR in front of the world while Russia (and the former USSR) prefers to hit something and say "we did so because it's our right, problem?". The essence of what they do is identical in many ways but people's perception about it is not. Sugarcoated crap is still crap though and I am quite convinced that every intelligent person is supposed - at the very least - to try to look beyond the propaganda and the shallow ideological slogans and try to figure out what is really happening out there.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 03, 2014 04:53 PM |
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Edited by Orzie at 16:57, 03 Sep 2014.
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I don't think there can be any war, because as someone clever said here, nobody wants the war, and Europe too. Russia might play some gas tricks though, and the EU will probably have to decide how to deal with that problem if it appears.
I'd like to mention something about the trade embargos - currently, our propaganda massively say that a lot of European countries suffered considerable economical casualties after the "counter-sanctions" made by Russia. I suspect it is not true at all, so I'd like to hear some people from Finland, Greece or Poland on that topic. Polish apples were abundant before due to their low price, and our propaganda keeps saying that the loss of them is all for good because it's a chance to raise our own production for internal use. Yet, many people know clearly that changing a supplier is a really hard thing for every trader.
Sal said:
I got what you meant, just underlining that in this precise case, the fact that there are millions of Russians in Ukraine is big part of the equation.
Not only Russians - I guess, all Ukraine is able to speak Russian, a soviet heritage. Not even mentioning a lot of Russian-speaking Ukrainians who don't identify them as Russians but still accept Russia as a sister country.
The Western part of Ukraine doesn't share the pro-russian sentiment en masse, as there's a big history between all these affairs. So turning these people against Russia was pretty easy.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted September 03, 2014 05:22 PM |
- penalty applied by OmegaDestroyer on 03 Sep 2014. |
Edited by Corribus at 05:34, 04 Sep 2014.
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@Orzie:
We here have a lot of meats and dairy products which come to you Ivans. Stores are overflowing with yogurts, cheeses, and very cheap meat these days, although the quality of it is crap due for it overstaying in poor warehouse conditions.
Bought some shashlyks the other day, vomited out every piece I ate. And I', the sort of guy who can eat pretty much anything. today I saw the same variety of meats being cut half in the price. go figure. Our people barked at rooskies enough so they banned our produce, which they have no idea how to use. and since they're a bunch of profit chasing people the option of donating the surplus of food to the needy is out of the bleeping equation.
recently, our local people propose that NATO should bomb Kaliningrad and we Lithuanians, should annex it. Yea. that will go smoothly. with us being steamrolled by the Ivans.
Again, if anypne want's war it's our resident US and NATO people sitting in the parliament and presidency. Same applies to the people who run poland.
The whole situation is similiar to a chihuahua attacking a caucasian shepherd.
On recent news, it is said that Lithuania's military is looking to buy some tanks to bolster our army's strenght. Not sure which tanks, either the M48 Patton's which sank in the marshes of 'nam or old rust buckets that used to be T-55's scavenged from that tank graveyard in Charkov.
MOD EDIT: Offensive language removed.
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"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted September 03, 2014 05:30 PM |
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If you ask me we should just cut off ALL trade with Russia as the western world. If only Germany had a decent supply of gas from somewhere else I'm pretty sure we already would have.
It's the russians suffering more than us though. You're the ones being left out of all the good stuff. 
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radar
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posted September 03, 2014 05:44 PM |
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There's a big action going on here promoting Polish apples so our market does not suffer much loss from the embargo. Or whatever. You can even see major chain stores encouraging you to buy the fruit "for Putin".
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted September 03, 2014 05:48 PM |
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radar said:
There's a big action going on here promoting Polish apples so our market does not suffer much loss from the embargo. Or whatever. You can even see major chain stores encouraging you to buy the fruit "for Putin".
good for you blokes.
are the produce offered on lower prices or..?
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 03, 2014 05:51 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 15:02, 06 Sep 2014.
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JoonasTo said:
It's the russians suffering more than us though. You're the ones being left out of all the good stuff.
Well, we don't suffer noticeably to be honest. Russia has a nice agrarian potential. People still buy stuff like olive oil, but I didn't check the origin of it. Personally I don't see any changes. The only problem I worry about is that some cunning-ass trading companies who can start rising prices using the "embargo" as an excuse. This can happen to petrol, too.
If the embargo was concerning the high tech, household chemicals and household appliances, then you would be damn right. But for some reason the embargo only concerned the food.
I recently noticed that our gas monopolist company, the Gasprom, started conducting gas tubes to many new villages. It can be a possible try to expand the internal consumption because the "gash musht flow".
MOD EDIT: Image removed; non-English content
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radar
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Castle/Haven player
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posted September 03, 2014 05:52 PM |
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Edited by radar at 17:53, 03 Sep 2014.
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Quote:
are the produce offered on lower prices or..?
This exactly and they are heavily advertised.
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted September 03, 2014 06:14 PM |
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Our European global interest is to keep as close as possible China, Russia and US as economic rivals -ok, maybe Russia only as symbolic one, for now-. If you start to penalize and create a fruitful land for the remaining winner then propel him to incontestable leader rank, moreover if it is either China or US, expect hard times, as those two super powers practice a very aggressive economical expansion.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted September 03, 2014 06:26 PM |
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radar said:
Quote:
are the produce offered on lower prices or..?
This exactly and they are heavily advertised.
well, at least Poland does it right. promoting local produce and offering the surplus on cheap prices. which is good in the current situation. Our food surplus which was supposed to be exported to Ivans will rot away in storage. because instead of offering them cheaper to the local consumer, the prices remained the same or even went up a bit. an exception is pork and beef produce. milk and other dairy products are expensive as bleep.
But my neighbour has 5 dairy cows, so we get fresh and ecological milk, which is nice. half of it goes to our dog, but whatever. My wife managed to make some curd cheese from the milk we're getting, which is also nice.
I still think that some amount of the good s which were banned by the Ivans should be donated to the needy, but our idiots won't see this way. because profit.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted September 03, 2014 06:31 PM |
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Yeah, same thing here. At first there was a lot of really cheap stuff that was supposed to be traded to Russia but now the EU pays for their storage so they will be just put away till further notice.
Which is a shame because I could really use cheap food 
France froze the Mistral deal btw.
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 03, 2014 08:32 PM |
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JoonasTo said:
If you ask me we should just cut off ALL trade with Russia as the western world. If only Germany had a decent supply of gas from somewhere else I'm pretty sure we already would have.
It's the russians suffering more than us though. You're the ones being left out of all the good stuff.
Deal. But please do transfer a few billion euros to your poor Balkan cousins to compensate them for the losses, will ya? It will be good the Western playboys to actually give us some money when they decide to use the prostitutes in our governments. It's more gentlemanly, you know.
This applies to multiple countries in Eastern Europe by the way.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted September 03, 2014 08:40 PM |
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Your losses?
I'm pretty sure Finland would be hit pretty bad too, we don't have anything to share now, where do you think we would share then? 
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Zenofex
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posted September 03, 2014 09:04 PM |
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Don't know, worry about stag fur barter economy yourselves, I want someone to compensate us.  Many people here have been trying to eat gangsta-style democracy and Euro-Atlantic values throughout the last 25 years and as a result the population has diminished from 9 to 7 millions. The survivors are beginning to realize that a more traditional meal for lunch and dinner is considerably more nourishing. So if the EU (which is always on the side of justice, no doubt) decides substitute the meals that we will lose because of the sanctions and embargoes with something equally tasty and nourishing (and provide wood for the winter because the gas... you have a lot of wood up there, don't you Jonas?) - then go ahead.
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted September 04, 2014 06:45 AM |
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JoonasTo said:
France froze the Mistral deal btw.
I would respect this decision if...
...only France did same with its half billion $ weapons sales to Israel, which is far above Russia, in terms of international condemnations.
Politics, lobbies, corruption.
Hardly can see why Kip is penalized when naming this specific political class "idiots". They aren't able to earn the respect of their people and be named otherwise.
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