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| Thread: Are we on the brink of general war between Europe and Russia? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Clay_Man
Known Hero
TOH gamer
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posted September 09, 2014 01:42 PM |
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Every country's military budget is a joke compared to the U.S.
Technology and resources are just one factor of many in a war situation, see Germany vs SU during WW2 or Vietnam.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 02:51 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 21:40, 09 Sep 2014.
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xerox said:
I'm thinking that should Russa be hit very hard by sanctions and embargos, that could create a lot of internal tensions and make Russia focus more on that than Ukraine.
Oh yeah, Russia must not meddle with the neighbouring country's revolts making it pro-Western and turning it against Russia. Dat logic, Xerox edition. 
We need more meaningless sanctions! Recently I heard that Barack Obama is not allowed to enter a car shop in a small town in Urals. Tremble in fear, capitalistic monsters! 
Click for image
MOD EDIT: Foreign language image removed.
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Zenofex
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Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 09, 2014 08:00 PM |
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Doomforge said:
Both sides are aware of that, and thus, I don't think any war will happen BUT both sides have to be sure of such outcome for war NOT to follow. The only thing that prevented WW3 so far was the knowledge of both sides getting equal treatment (back to middle ages) thus the war being entirely pointless. But if mr. Putin starts thinking he can re-capture this or that and unite it under the banner of the ex-Soviet empire, we can get unnecessary tensions in the piss-poor part of Europe. Maybe even severly unnecessary acts such as re-enabling the conscription, or paying millions of $$ for useless gadgets like tanks and copters (from poor country's perspective all that is a waste of time and cash).
Well, isn't Poland more than happy to give its territory to the US for bases and missile shields instead of spending money? And you also got that charming fellow, Tusk, as a "president" of the EU so you can squeeze money for defense. Maybe the thought that nobody is Kremlin is that mad to attack a NATO member will occasionally pass through certain people's heads but maintaining a high military budget is very democratic thing, as you can see from the world's top democracy.
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JoonasTo
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Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted September 09, 2014 08:10 PM |
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xerox said:
I'm thinking that should Russa be hit very hard by sanctions and embargos, that could create a lot of internal tensions and make Russia focus more on that than Ukraine.
That's what I've been saying since the beginning. Let's just completely block Russia off from the western world and deal with the following economic collapse.
It will always be better than dealing with the russians.
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 08:34 PM |
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The thing is: Russians are used to privations and rationing. And they will live it even easier as they 100% back Putin on this matter.
If Russians decide to retaliate by blocking air travel through their territory, a lot of companies will go bankruptcy + the usual outcries from regular customers.
Look at France: out of his mind, Hollande decides to froze the weapons deal with Putin.
Same day, you have majority of ignorant Frenchies agreeing with him and saying "let's show to those warmonger ruskies".
Then analysts publicly say: attention, if you do this, nobody will trust France anymore, business is business. This means billions loss, deals broken, people unemployed.
Next day, Frenchies went berserker on Hollande.
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Zenofex
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Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 09, 2014 08:45 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 20:54, 09 Sep 2014.
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That has been the situation all along and it doesn't seem to be heading in the other direction. It's pretty naive (or one can also say - stupid) to think that only Russia loses from these sanctions. It's equally naive to think that the Moscow crew will just sit on their asses and will not take counter-measures. Thus far the biggest proponents of the tough economical approach are the countries which have little or nothing to lose (a manly position, no doubt).
And once again - the EU largely considers itself to be composed of the Cold War age members. Hello, we're here, remember? Are you planning to pay us for the losses? 'Cause we are not planning to support the local prostitutes who will agree to the opposite.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 09:05 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 21:08, 09 Sep 2014.
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I want Russia to become a Western-style liberal democracy but my impression is that Russians don't really care much about such values. They care more about their material well-being, which has increased during Putin's reign. Putin is also popular for cleaning up the huge mess that resulted following the collapse of the Soviet Union. The problem with Putin is that he has zero ambitions to turn Russia into a liberal democracy. Voter demand for liberal policies also seem nigh non-existent in Russia.
For Russia to become a liberal democracy, it needs voters that demand those ideas and leaders that supply them. Present-day Russian has none of that. So how can liberal democracy be achieved in Russia?
One idea (which is happening) is pressuring Putin to change his policies using sanctions and embargoes. It weakens the Russian Federation financially, and it could potentially decrease popular support for Putin. However, given the massive state control of the media (which also makes it unlikely support for liberal policies will increase...), it seems like the opposite is happening. Economic stagnation might not turn the public against Putin, but it will hurt his state coffers, and if there's anything that will make this hound stop bark, it's that.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted September 09, 2014 09:09 PM |
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Zenofex said:
And once again - the EU largely considers itself to be composed of the Cold War age members. Hello, we're here, remember? Are you planning to pay us for the losses? 'Cause we are not planning to support the local prostitutes who will agree to the opposite.
some of those already spread the legs since the day we've joined in this "union" of liberasty.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 09:13 PM |
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Almost all Russians I know (including in this forum) consider that Western style is depraved, amoral and shallow. It has noting to do with their materialistic well-being wish, but rather with their ideals and respect of their specific lore.
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JoonasTo
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Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted September 09, 2014 09:16 PM |
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Well, if we look at history, every time the russian state(or the equivalent of it anyway) has collapsed the common man has been better off after the restoration.
Of course if you want liberal democracy the problem is largely in the population and culture. Russia has very few areas where people would actually like freedom. The orthodox church, local tribes, the mafia, the soviet state, the current state and the culture itself are and have always been highly authoritarian. That's not going to change. At best you can hope for a benevolent oligarchy.
If you want funny examples just look at Murmansk, the whole town is run by a biker gang. All state sanctioned of course. 
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 09:22 PM |
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Hmm, who suggested that in Russia there is no freedom and now it is commonly repeated over and over in this thread? It is quite false, Soviet Unions is dead and long time buried but some seem to not know it yet.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 09:22 PM |
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At the same time, it seems like "Western culture" is achieved almost UNIVERSALLY in societies that have a high standard of living. So while the Russian economy needs to suffer in the short-term due to the violations of international law by its government, it needs to increase in a way that benefits the public for them to become more liberal in the future.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 09:24 PM |
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Sal said:
Hmm, who suggested that in Russia there is no freedom and now it is commonly repeated over and over in this thread? It is quite false, Soviet Unions is dead and long time buried but some seem to not know it yet.
White, heterosexual men are the ones having freedom and equal rights in Russian society.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted September 09, 2014 09:30 PM |
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xerox said:
Sal said:
Hmm, who suggested that in Russia there is no freedom and now it is commonly repeated over and over in this thread? It is quite false, Soviet Unions is dead and long time buried but some seem to not know it yet.
White, heterosexual, rich and ruling party supporting men are the ones having freedom and equal rights in Russian society.
there
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 09:35 PM |
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@xerox
It has nothing to do with freedom as you define it.
By lack of freedom you suggest the government dictates to its people the attitude to have against minorities, while in fact the government simply listens to its people, on THIS subject. And is not true that gays are prosecuted based on their sexual orientations. Not anymore.
Look, this is Russia, not some weakling France, UK or Norway. The biggest country in the entire world. They have some strong traditions, beliefs, powerful orthodox roots, a very long anti-democratic history; is not like you can change this with a magic stick.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 09:44 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 21:46, 09 Sep 2014.
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Sal said:
@xerox
It has nothing to do with freedom as you define it.
By lack of freedom you suggest the government dictates to its people the attitude to have against minorities, while in fact the government simply listens to its people, on THIS subject. And is not true that gays are prosecuted based on their sexual orientations. Not anymore.
Look, this is Russia, not some weakling France, UK or Norway. The biggest country in the entire world. They have some strong traditions, beliefs, powerful orthodox roots, a very long anti-democratic history; is not like you can change this with a magic stick.
No, your traditions are patriarchal, homophobic and generally oppressive. I want them to change and I definitely oppose your government imposing those values on individuals just because the public demands it. The human rights of the individual are not for the public to vote on.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 09:50 PM |
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Bringing again and again the gay rights as your unique standard of freedom and universal value is a bit reductive, when we talk about great nations.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted September 09, 2014 10:00 PM |
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Well, I've heard that the whole concept of race is being abolished(or it is proposed to do so) in Sweden, so what else there's to bring out?
Homophobia card is replacing the racism card these days not by days, but by minutes.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 10:00 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:03, 09 Sep 2014.
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A nation that steals a man's liberty from him due to his qualities or choices, is no great nation.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted September 09, 2014 10:03 PM |
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oh for bleeps sake, you can be gay at the Ivan's all you like.
the whole thing is just forbidden for them to advertise themselves, which is what generally normal thinking homosexuals never do. they just go on with their lives.
All those LGBT activists imo are just attention seekers and nothing more.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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