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| Thread: Are we on the brink of general war between Europe and Russia? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 10:05 PM |
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I like freedom of speech.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 10:08 PM |
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Well, the gay rights were almost same everywhere until not long time ago.
According to your logic there were no great nation in the whole history because of gays right. Now, gays can kiss in public and suddenly great nations arise.
Hum...
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 10:25 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:26, 09 Sep 2014.
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No EU country oppresses LGBTQ people to extent that the Russian government does.
To be fair, no nation "does things". Individuals do things and are often restricted in doing greatness by other individuals using the state as means to oppress them.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 11:09 PM |
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Sal said:
By lack of freedom you suggest the government dictates to its people the attitude to have against minorities, while in fact the government simply listens to its people, on THIS subject.
So your point is "The government is oppressive, but it's okay because the majority wants it to be oppressive"?
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 09, 2014 11:19 PM |
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Edited by artu at 06:40, 10 Sep 2014.
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Sal said:
Look, this is Russia, not some weakling France, UK or Norway. The biggest country in the entire world. They have some strong traditions,
That is sometimes a disadvantage rather than advantage. The ironic thing is, what made Russia Westernize so fast back in the 18th century under Petro's reign, was their lack of glorious past and tradition. So, they were modern enough in the 19th to be able to compete and rise. The Ottoman's on the other hand, with their imperial power and geographical possession of most former Roman Empire, saw the Europeans as inferior, weak rivals and resisted the idea of changing their ways according to them. When 18th century was missed, they were doomed to fall back in the 19th, without the Enlightenment's rational thinking, modern armies and industrialization's steam power. It was too late to transform fast enough then, so WW1 put the final blow to the decline and the empire was no more.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 09, 2014 11:58 PM |
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kipshasz said:
oh for bleeps sake, you can be gay at the Ivan's all you like.
the whole thing is just forbidden for them to advertise themselves, which is what generally normal thinking homosexuals never do. they just go on with their lives.
All those LGBT activists imo are just attention seekers and nothing more.
I don't know if you just don't know about the gay hate-gangs or just turn your blind eye to it, but I can say you with absolute certainty that what you say is very far from true many places in Russia.
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What will happen now?
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 10, 2014 06:06 AM |
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Edited by orzie at 06:22, 10 Sep 2014.
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Okay, lemme explain the xerox thing for ya all: he hates Russia because it's far from open gay support. Forget about the politics. 
Now seriously, gay is considered shame for heterosexual. This comes from the Church and although the percent of religious people is not high anymore, it has become a part of our life and children education. And surprisingly, it did not make us a weak nation which is supposed to have negative demographic stats every year. Russia is the country combining the eastern and the western styles of life, and it's different from both. It's national self-conscience is way another than xerox suggests. Eastern countries don't even give a snow about all that LGBT thing, and this don't make them weaker on the international arena.
About Putin and his politics. You know, when I was a kid, my grandma woke up at 5 am to take place in a queue in milk shop to get the milk for us because if she woke up at seven, the milk would be bought by someone else. Now our family has two cars, one is VW Polo and the other is Mitsubishi L200. You will never succeed in persuasion of Russians that they started living bad with Putin, aside from all his disadvantages. You would better go and clean the streets near your house and make your country cleaner rather than wasting time slamming the keyboard and writing silly things. Yes, we have a liberal 5th column, and it is run by a populist and blogger suggesting himself to become a president. Nah. We don't want to have the same thing as in Ukraine. These people don't think what will happen next after deposing Putin. They just get their salary from unknown sources and keep blaming him personally while it's a clear propaganda nothing better that we have now. They only speak one name - Putin Putin Putin, while it's clear that no single person can change things. If you think otherwise, you're even more brainwashed than us.
About the sanctions. You know, Russian self-conscience intends struggle and doing the opposite as they are told by foreigners. With the few tv programmes - poof - Russians say that they are okay with trade embargos, a man can live without omars and olive oil (I actually still see all that in stores so no difference). You know, we have been attacked by many forces - the Mongol, the Osman, the Napoleon's and Hitler's. Even the Swedes were defeated under Poltava (now Ukrainian town) by Peter I's forces. And now you think that we can have a defeated side's style of thoughts? Never.
I'm not a patriot. I rejected joining the fsb when I was offered too. But when I see the load of Statements and accusations towards Russia which are not fair, I cannot accept it. Immigrants to European countries, when they return to their Russian relatives on vacation, tell that the EU pushes the same propaganda with the reverse sign. I don't see a.reason not to believe them. Freedom of speech, huh. Americans hide.their emotions with the everyday smile. We don't hide our emotions, and for some reason we are called slaves.
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 10, 2014 06:15 AM |
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Edited by orzie at 06:32, 10 Sep 2014.
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Not even talking about some western "democratic laws" - I was shocked to know that you are not allowed to grow your own potatoes and even keeping the seeds! Hails.to democracy and freedom. You know, we are even allowed to sell what we grow or find in forests.
In other words, Xerox, we don't need no your freedom. If you want us to be free - it's only your intentions, but your rights (to think so) end when our rights (to be different) begin.
I actually don't care much about Russian gays, but some lesbians I know personally don't have any problems with their situation. Not allowed to marry? Well, many heterosexual families don't do that, they love each other without a stamp in the passport. Not allowed to have children? It's a trauma for a kid with Russian education to be raised in such family. And this is unchangeable. At least, in the nearest 30 years.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 10, 2014 06:40 AM |
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orzie said:
I'm not a patriot.
i had you pegged wrong then.
btw, i'm an american, orzie. i don't really care for how you lumped me in with everyone else. there are others like me, who know that russia alone shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. i think it's odd, myself, that nobody thinks the u.s.(or any other country, for that matter) should be held accountable for any of it's wrongdoings, except terrorists, ffs. 
i've always made it as clear as possible, that i want to point out the flaws in EVERY nation. nobody's hands have ever been clean. i'm sure even the so-called "neutral" countries, have had their hands in something, however secretly. i don't see how they could not. there is an abundance of corruption and greed, seen in any large group of human beings who govern others. the power goes straight to people's heads. and honestly, i don't see how it couldn't. it's a human thing. like playing "king of the mountain", when you were kids. trying to keep all the toys for yourselves. what's sad, is, it doesn't look like most people ever grow up; at least, it doesn't seem that way. there are a few people, who have given me hope, though. and to be clear, those people have never been in any government.
(ok, i'm coming down off my soapbox, now.  )
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted September 10, 2014 07:10 AM |
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Huh, I don't see a reason to be patriot of a country which is run by oligarchs. 
I have no personal prejudices towards you, you are a cool guy and wish there were more like ya. It was just a commie parasite taken over my mind for a minute.
Anyways, this forum is much more tolerant to Russia than others, surprisingly. I remember No Mutants Allowed where I posted something like "Oh, it seems that THIS is discussed.everywhere" and got a nice truck of crap downloaded over my head.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 10, 2014 07:35 AM |
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orzie said:
In other words, Xerox, we don't need no your freedom. If you want us to be free - it's only your intentions, but your rights (to think so) end when our rights (to be different) begin.
Your so-called "right to be different" is really a "right" to be oppressive - for the government to suppress speech that normalizes homosexuality, for example. Needless to say, it's not a real right, because it's aggression against peaceful people.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 10, 2014 07:49 AM |
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It's funny how you libertarian crusaders scream about liberty on every occasion (even when uncalled for) but when someone tells you that he doesn't interpret liberty like you, you deny him the right to differ. You are truly religion people. 
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 10, 2014 07:50 AM |
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It's almost like it's an objective concept and not up to individual interpretation.
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Eccentric Opinion
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 10, 2014 08:03 AM |
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Zenofex said:
It's funny how you libertarian crusaders scream about liberty on every occasion (even when uncalled for) but when someone tells you that he doesn't interpret liberty like you, you deny him the right to differ. You are truly religion people.
it would help if you were more specific. "you libertarian crusaders" could be anyone. do you mean me? because i don't think i fall under a certain political affiliation.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 10, 2014 08:13 AM |
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Not you, of course. You're in the "**** them all, the world is doomed" party. There are two pronounced libertarians around - one old (mvass) and one newly baptized (xerox) and they know when they are addressed. 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 10, 2014 08:16 AM |
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Edited by artu at 08:25, 10 Sep 2014.
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@Zenofex
In this case, they (mvass and xerox) happen to be correct though. Preserving discrimination against peaceful individuals is not "a right to be different." How is that different than, say, asking for Sharia Law and adulterers to be whipped because you're Muslim? However, if a society is not ready for such change, there is not much you can do by modernizing the law because it wont be practiced. It's not like controlling car theft. Still, the law can sometimes serve as a pioneer and catalyzer when a social norm is slowly changing. If you become too pushy, it can always backfire, too though.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 10, 2014 08:16 AM |
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Zenofex said:
You're in the "**** them all, the world is doomed" party.
LOL. getting there more and more everyday. one day, i'll be the king of that party. 
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted September 10, 2014 08:27 AM |
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artu said:
@Zenofex
In this case, they (mvass @ xerox) happen to be correct though. Preserving discrimination against peaceful individuals is not "a right to be different." How is that different than, say, asking for Sharia Law and adulterers to be whipped because you're Muslim? However, if a society is not ready for such change, there is not much you can do by modernizing the law because it wont be practiced. It's not like outlawing car theft. Still, the law can sometimes serve as a pioneer and catalyzer when a social norm is slowly changing. If you become too pushy, it can always backfire, too though.
Their position is "these societies are inferior because they don't share our values" and xerox in particular has mentioned multiple times that he's OK with forcefully changing these societies - including with external intervention - until they become more permeable. That's a formula that has never worked in the long run and never will + it normally backfires. In addition, thinking that your ideology has a monopoly over the definition of liberty reminds me of Gestapo and the Inquisition a bit too much to take it seriously.
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted September 10, 2014 08:30 AM |
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alcibiades said:
kipshasz said:
oh for bleeps sake, you can be gay at the Ivan's all you like.
the whole thing is just forbidden for them to advertise themselves, which is what generally normal thinking homosexuals never do. they just go on with their lives.
All those LGBT activists imo are just attention seekers and nothing more.
I don't know if you just don't know about the gay hate-gangs or just turn your blind eye to it, but I can say you with absolute certainty that what you say is very far from true many places in Russia.
it is true what you say here Alci. some misinterpret the law as a excuse to go out and commit pogroms. which is not very nice.
same as we here start shooting jews in the back of their heads again.(want a racial slur for Lithuanians? call us jewshooters)
Kinda strange that most of the members of these anti-gay gangs may as well be passive homosexuals themselves.
We're talking about tracksuit wearing, USSR prison culture laws abiding, headshaven imbeciles.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 10, 2014 08:35 AM |
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Edited by artu at 08:36, 10 Sep 2014.
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@Zenofex
Their position is more like "these rights must be universal and not subject to local customs" but yes, the rhetoric as a whole is quite naive and sometimes annoying.
I don't think being against discrimination would be declaring a monopoly on the definition of liberty. The universality of some rights (at least in theory) is quite a general concept, approved by almost anyone who thinks liberty is a valuable thing. It's one of the concepts you can't take out.
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