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| Thread: Are we on the brink of general war between Europe and Russia? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV |
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted September 16, 2014 12:11 AM |
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We sang a 5 minutes hymn glorifying our little nation resisting the yore invaders before 8 daily hours of general education, history, literature, physics, chemistry, geography and music classes, and this is enough for you to claim that we were brainwashed?
Well then certainly I am brainwashed as I fail to see any logic there.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 16, 2014 12:20 AM |
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Making little children repeat the same ideological text every morning is part of a brainwashing process. It's just tip of the iceberg, it tells somthing about the qualifications and policy of that educational program. And of course, you would be also having chemistry, math etc. Nazi elementry schools had them, too. What's that got to do with anything? Indoctrination is wrong, teaching critical thinking is good, simple enough?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 16, 2014 12:49 AM |
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Quote:
Sure, give them cell phones at 5, daily video games until 20 then you will have your next tolerant generation who does not even remember where they come from or why they live for.
And thank God for that. They'll be connected with people worldwide, meet new people, and talk to friends who are too far away to talk to conventionally. Wars and internal oppressions are often caused by people who care about "where they come from" or "what they live for". Tolerance and cosmopolitanism are the way to a society that's enjoyable to live in.
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 16, 2014 01:10 AM |
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He's underlining the lack of depth and blind consumerism, not communication. The communication part is more about the internet and it is indeed a good thing that distant people are able to get in touch so easy in our age.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted September 16, 2014 01:15 AM |
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When I was a child and we sang, I never listened to the text, I just enjoyed the rhythm.
Our national anthem talks about Gods and what not, but the first time I ever considered God was many years after I first time sang about it.. I don't know why it was brought up, but it was brought up in a music lesson and our music teacher told us about it. I don't remember what she said, but at first I was like.. no way! Then a friend of mine asked me if I believed and I said no, and he said he did, I thought that maybe I should reconsider..
I don't know how unique my case is, but for me, for something to be important, I'd to actually had someone to talk about it with, or experience it, not just have it in the background.
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Living time backwards
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted September 16, 2014 02:42 AM |
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Edited by Sal at 02:45, 16 Sep 2014.
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artu said:
Making little children repeat the same ideological text every morning is part of a brainwashing process. Indoctrination is wrong, teaching critical thinking is good, simple enough?
I think we don't live on same planet, get back. Those hymns are still played today at each world competition, and athletes are in tears when they hear their own hymn. Maybe we should arrest them?
Romanian people were so brainwashed that they were the first ones-and the unique ones- to discrown their dictator, judge and shot him. How that sounds for a brainwashed people?
Maybe this is your frustration in Turkey. Imperialist country, always on expansion, religious on the top, one can confuse how Nationalism, Nazism or Socialism really define. But in such little countries as Romania, Poland, Czechoslovakia and all other former USSR satellites, being proud of resisting the old times barbaric invaders isn't nationalism, is something to be proud of.
Is our history.
Singing together about, and from the youngest age, is tying and federating us, for a noble idea. Is in nothing different from group reading Tolstoy or Lenin.
Seems you are gone into a vain crusade here, as I can't see how any of your arguments fit to the text I quoted.
My answer was to Lexan, about eastern people being educated differently, more protective and conservative toward their country and its traditions they had to defend with true blood.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 16, 2014 03:03 AM |
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Edited by artu at 03:11, 16 Sep 2014.
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No, the argument of "nationalism of resisting minorities and the ruling majority are different in nature" does not apply here. It's true your hymn's lyrics are quite harmless but you gave and (defended) the French hymn as an example yourself. Most hymns are like that and every country finds a perspective and picks a period to justify the nationalism.
Our national hymn is from the independence war period, too. Of course, it doesn't talk about invading the Balkans or Africa. Keep in mind, the nation-state had to renounce the Empire to establish its own legitimacy, they had different ideologies. Just like many, it talks about the sacrifices of ancestors who shed their blood for our homeland and they lay right beneath our feet, we shall prevail and end this attack on us etc etc. It was written right in the middle of the independence war, post WW1 Turkey. Troops from England, Greece, France, Italy were in mainland, not the Balkans or the Middle East or Africa.
What Lexxan talks about has a simpler explanation, the more advanced and old democracies are already over a type of nationalism that is still in currency in Eastern states. It was them who invented that type of nationalism in the first place but their social fabric can no longer support such a primitive ideology, they don't need to anyway and there is no rational or ethical reason to stick to it. It eventually turns into a xenophobic, hostile mind set. A Romanian nationalism in the state of Romania will not be any different. Just think of what Balkans went through very recently, in our life time.
Playing hymns in sport events or national holidays is not the same as constantly playing it to school children, btw. That's relatively understandable and it's no big deal.
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Sal
Famous Hero
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posted September 16, 2014 03:17 AM |
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Quote:
It eventually turns into a xenophobic, hostile mind set
Nope, it turns into you don't know what. Pure guess, imagination, virtual logical projections. There are no studies to show how singing a national hymn is prejudicial. Chinese still sing them every day, and I don't hear chinese drones up my head.
More polite and integrate than chinese, you won't find.
As I said, you should define your terms. Romanians hostile? Xenophobic? Brainwashed? Their education close to Nazism?
How many foreigners Romania killed in the last decade? How many foreigners US killed in the same decade? Is it comparable? Even Russia with Chechnya can't compete, even close.
How convenient, fight like mads over meaningless WORDS but real facts big as elephants, you don't see them, nor comment.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 16, 2014 03:42 AM |
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You twist my words Sal, I said Nazi schools had chemistry and math, too in response to your irrelevant listing of a curriculum. I haven't implied Romanian nationalism was at a Nazi level. And Chinese or Romanians can be nice or xenophobic individually (naturally, Chinese wont be like that to Europeans but their own historical enemies) but the ideology of nationalism itself builds its own "virtual history" and politics by inventing enemies or scratching historically existing ones.
I've read about the political rise of nationalism in Germany, Japan, Turkey, some elements are very similar. Once again, the hymn itself is just a tip of the iceberg but if somebody indoctrinates kids by making them repeat it 5 times a week, you can bet that the education there is not built upon making the kids construct their own world view.
Metaphorically speaking, you teach kids to cook. You want them to be proud citizens, teach them to cook well. But you don't make them sing "oh, our tomatos are better than everone elses, we'll die for our banana gladly, hura hura hura." There was this oath we used to repeat every monday morning in school, which literally said "I dedicate my existence to the existence of my nation" That is one of the most idiotic, authoritarian things you can teach to a kid.
If anyone, it's you who is not of this world and motivated by sentiment of homesickness. I told you I had been through a very nationalist curriculum and a society as a kid, I know what nationalism is first hand by experience. The basics of nationalism, the mindset and the initiatives are not identical but quite similar almost everywhere. There are many studies about it and none of them approves the outcome.
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 16, 2014 07:43 AM |
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Edited by orzie at 08:12, 16 Oct 2014.
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The latest statement from the Pentagon chief about "russkies being swarming around NATO's border" made me laugh so hard I was barely able to drive. This is a so huge load of bullsnow from our Western friends I can't handle with a serious face.
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