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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Should Ashan be scraped?
Thread: Should Ashan be scraped? This thread is 42 pages long: 1 10 20 ... 23 24 25 26 27 ... 30 40 42 · «PREV / NEXT»
War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted April 04, 2015 07:50 PM

@Zombi_Wizzard: I was kind of mocking LW's argument, as indicated by the smiley. LW appears to greatly dislike Warcraft and anything that has even the barest, farfetched, most ill construed, imagined connection to it, makes things bad.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted April 04, 2015 08:00 PM
Edited by verriker at 20:02, 04 Apr 2015.

Sligneris said:
This doesn't prevent you from insulting others because of their opinion - I agree with Geny, that statement of yours was highly hypocritical. In one post you preach that "no type of fandom is superior to another", while in the other you comment about Ashan fans having "low standards". This is a pretty clear image for me.


that's way out of context lol, I was talking to Sandro400 about the many broken promises from this interview, he said hey, Erwin acknowledged the mistakes and is making progress, and I said I don't applaud gradual progress after broken promises but it's fine if you have lower standards lol
I wasn't prejudicially saying all Ashan fans automatically have low standards (even if I may personally think they do) lol

and to be honest, you have not exactly been the perfect model of civility around here yourself, so I would hope we can agree to put away the victimisation angle rather than have me to root through your past posts for any petty comments you've made lol

Nuriel said:
How could anyone want bringing back the old Necropolis? That faction was boring as hell. They were just older than dust For-The-Evulz evil sorcereres who want to destroy the world. Why? Because they are Evulz! Sorry, I much more prefer new “buddhist” faction.

Especially for the reason, that the new presentation of necromancers doesn’t precludes them from being I-Want-To-Rule-The-World evil sorcerers. Look at the ToTE campaign. How many times Arantir whined about necromancers who doesn’t show proper respect to Asha and think only about theirs “secular” power?


actually that's a major oversimplification, the classic necromancers did not intend to destroy the world, but the opposite, they personally saved the day more than a couple times lol (Archibald in MM6, Nimbus in Heroes 3, Sandro in MM8, Gauldoth in H4, etc)

either way, one man's boring, played out, straightforward approach is another man's traditional, logical, sensible route lol

how do you humanise a necromancer? well how would we, as humans, react to people who raise our dead to serve them? we'd call them evil abominations, banish them as pariahs, try to destroy them, we probably wouldn't treat them like harmless benevolent monks serving their god lol

all the same, Gauldoth, "molested as a child" as Erwin so eloquently put it, is the ultimate example that the classic necromancers had even more potential for depth than the Ashan ones; he's more Buddhistic than Arantir ever was, he doesn't just recite mindless fanatical slogans and engage in wars of ancestral prejudice, but thinks for himself and collaborates with his traditional enemies to survive

and I think people still like their mindless, conniving, power hungry necromancers anyway - Archibald was a fan favorite, Sandro is still acclaimed as one of the coolest heroes, even Markal is well liked, and all three of those guys were one dimensional villains who existed only to troll the forces of good lol
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JotunLogi
JotunLogi


Known Hero
posted April 04, 2015 08:14 PM

Archibald was more like warlock and necromancer is rather named (really, he generally ruled everything what was evil- without info that he is necromancer there was no evidence cause he was not focused on necromancy, eternal life or so- just on pure power), besides he saved the world for his own reasons and selfish aim

Gauldoth was some cheap philosopher, that was fed up with everything, saw everything and thought that he knows everything and ultimately did not  care about everything nad wanted.. well, hard to say what he wanted, never sounded very touched by anything

Necromancer is just a person who uses necromancy (rising death and generallly what can be considered as death or black magic); they are generally evil and rather selfish cause they just want to achieve their aim by means that... are not that friendly

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
posted April 04, 2015 08:15 PM

War-overlord said:
@Zombi_Wizzard: I was kind of mocking LW's argument, as indicated by the smiley. LW appears to greatly dislike Warcraft and anything that has even the barest, farfetched, most ill construed, imagined connection to it, makes things bad.


Nah, I have nothing against Warcraft, I just hate h6 and the fact Erwin is copy-pasting lawl

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted April 04, 2015 08:18 PM

LizardWarrior said:
Nah, I have nothing against Warcraft

Ain't the vibe I'm getting, but I'll take your word for it. Still there quite a few other Warcraft haters out there that'll flock to the banner.
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JotunLogi
JotunLogi


Known Hero
posted April 04, 2015 08:21 PM

yeah, M&M: Heroes 6 is much copypasting... but who does not? Warcraft is itself a big copypaste from Tolkien and Warhammer, older M&M from D&D and Warhammer, Warhammer from D&D and Tolkien, D&D on Tolkien and older fantasy genre... list goes on and on The thing is that each has given sth unique and has own style- and all are great looking

Besides Erwan has said that game must sell for the good of the all M&M franchise, attract new people. By that must be attractive. And the best way to achieve that is to model on the best- so Blizzard mainly. And Blizzard really has great concepts and cool graphics so I am not mad about it at all

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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted April 04, 2015 08:23 PM
Edited by Sligneris at 20:36, 04 Apr 2015.

verriker said:
how do you humanise a necromancer? well how would we, as humans, react to people who raise our dead to serve them? we'd call them evil abominations, banish them as pariahs, try to destroy them, we probably wouldn't treat them like harmless benevolent monks serving their god lol

Isn't that how they're treated in Ashan, too? From the perspective of nearly all living humans, elves, dwarves and nagas, they are exactly what you describe - evil abominations, pariahs, heretics, blasphemers who twist Asha's image.

However, what would you say about their perspective? Does it makes sense for them to think of themselves this way? Do you think it's normal for a bunch of guys to go "we're all evil necromancers, time to invade some kingdoms"? No, Ashan gave these people some kind of ideology - they still raise the dead, they still wage wars, they still despise life - but for very different reasons.

They believe that life is chaos, an imperfection and that loss of it means little. They murder and raise people as undead, because they see nothing wrong with it. They are hardly harmless, but they do have a sense of purpose. That's what Ashan's Necromancers are all about.

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
posted April 04, 2015 08:24 PM
Edited by LizardWarrior at 20:25, 04 Apr 2015.

Why would I play a game which I hate? I'm not playing h6 (I tried but I can't play games which I don't enjoy ) Actually warcraft undead aren't even that bad done, the fact that Ashan necropolis tries to copy their design is what bothers me. The "green and spikes" you say I vaguely associate with them are actually pretty major motifs

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted April 04, 2015 08:28 PM
Edited by Mediczero at 20:29, 04 Apr 2015.

Well my opinion is that Ashan isn't so bad, but it is far from perfect. Currently I'm working an alternative to it. I haven't got very much yet, other than two factions:

Rampart, a mix between Sylvan and Haven. It'll mostly take from Sylvan and it's older versions and work as an alternative to the cliche knight faction.

Necropolis, a classic. Most likely spiderfree.

Note that in this world there is no humans, only various kinds of elves and possiblely some other races...

Now ignore me!

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JotunLogi
JotunLogi


Known Hero
posted April 04, 2015 08:34 PM
Edited by JotunLogi at 20:35, 04 Apr 2015.

ohh, I like humans! They look so good in shiny armours, dwarves also look nice in those!

Elves... eh, they are too slim!

Concept sounds nice (maybe humans could be slaves at least), but I hope that there will be more factions and races

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted April 04, 2015 08:37 PM

LizardWarrior said:
The "green and spikes" you say I vaguely associate with them are actually pretty major motifs

For H6, yes, green is a major theme. Not no more in H7. And it 's not a major colour for warcraft undead, Black, Ice-blue and Purple are. Sludgey green goop are just as much associated with the Fel-corrupted and the Goblins, because in rainbow of colour of Azeroth, green goop is just a sign of environmental negligence or Demonic Corruption.

And spikes, that's grasping at straws. Everything fantasy has spikes up the wazoo since 2000. And again, when compared to Warcraft, the spikes are clearly a greater motif for the Horde, all 6 kinds of them.

No, Jotun is right. Everything fantasy has been done. Everyone copies from everyone and everyone copies back. It is as General Dissaray says in South Park: "The Simpsons already did it".
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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted April 04, 2015 08:39 PM

Sligneris said:
Nuriel, Sorts, even Kimarous raised very good points that were mostly ignored.

Nuriel was spot on in his defense of Ashan's Necropolis, no one proved him wrong... how much are you willing to bet that Ashan is going to be called 'crap' again with zero support, as if it's some kind of objective fact?


EXACTLY THAT! i m still being ignored,when i present super valid points against enroth and all the crazyness of "we represent the actual heroes fanbase even if we are about 50 people"
and as i was ignored earlier ashan is falsely tied with H6.
this was a great forum i guess, and kudos to the people that made it happen, but for  asha's sake move on people! it's not "heroes 3 community and friends" !!
and people who are "oldies" here, or moderators can't be treated as gods or smth above someone else. and their word on this game is not above anybody else's. and the red star pointing system is pretty much unfair.
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JotunLogi
JotunLogi


Known Hero
posted April 04, 2015 08:43 PM

Well, ignoring some points/ posts seems to be very comfortable strategy But honestly- it is sometimes hard to follow a discussion, especially when someone is new here... or just amount of posts disables that

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
posted April 04, 2015 08:43 PM

War-overlord said:

For H6, yes, green is a major theme. Not no more in H7. And it 's not a major colour for warcraft undead, Black, Ice-blue and Purple are. Sludgey green goop are just as much associated with the Fel-corrupted and the Goblins, because in rainbow of colour of Azeroth, green goop is just a sign of environmental negligence or Demonic Corruption.

And spikes, that's grasping at straws. Everything fantasy has spikes up the wazoo since 2000. And again, when compared to Warcraft, the spikes are clearly a greater motif for the Horde, all 6 kinds of them.

No, Jotun is right. Everything fantasy has been done. Everyone copies from everyone and everyone copies back. It is as General Dissaray says in South Park: "The Simpsons already did it".


Not for Scourge, but for the Forsaken which are "good" undead. Also Lich King and most undead come from the burning legion, so they are a form of demonic corruption. But the spikes are omnipresent in icecrown, the ICC is pretty much a bunch of spikes

But yeah, everyone is copying everyone, but less known games copy popular games even more.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted April 04, 2015 08:47 PM

JotunLogi said:
ohh, I like humans! They look so good in shiny armours, dwarves also look nice in those!

Elves... eh, they are too slim!

Concept sounds nice (maybe humans could be slaves at least), but I hope that there will be more factions and races


Well I have been thinking over making it our world after a sort of magical cataclysm, but in any case humans are extinct atleast. However, there will be multiple kinds of elves other than the classic ones, like more heavy snow elves (or viking elves)

Wont bother you guy anymore, send me a message if you want to know more!

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Zombi_Wizzard
Zombi_Wizzard


Famous Hero
posted April 04, 2015 08:55 PM
Edited by Zombi_Wizzard at 21:08, 04 Apr 2015.

War-overlord said:
@Zombi_Wizzard: I was kind of mocking LW's argument, as indicated by the smiley. LW appears to greatly dislike Warcraft and anything that has even the barest, farfetched, most ill construed, imagined connection to it, makes things bad.

Fair enough ... guess I completly missed the point

Regarding spikes LW ... you know Warcraft didn't invent those right? They come from heavy metal bands...



Because you know ... why not. Spikes are present in all fantasy settings. More or less.

Oh and regarding good undead. That's Erwan's doing, not Blizzard's. Blizzard did this because people wanted to play undead. Even tho they have litle sence if you look at WC3 and Frozen Throne. Most Undead in Warcraft are clearly evil. In Ashan however noone is evil. Idk man, ask Erwan.

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted April 04, 2015 08:59 PM

LizardWarrior said:
Not for Scourge, but for the Forsaken which are "good" undead. Also Lich King and most undead come from the burning legion, so they are a form of demonic corruption. But the spikes are omnipresent in icecrown, the ICC is pretty much a bunch of spikes.But yeah, everyone is copying everyone, but less known games copy popular games even more.

Green is not a major colour for either form of undead, Ice blue is typically Scourge, but Black and Purple are the major colours of both. Green is the Colour of the Burning Legion.
The Forsaken aren't good undead, not even "good", they are clearly the most depraved and detested playable race out there, when reconing from the PoV from the other playable races. They are just as vile, corruptive and destructive as the Scourge, even more so since they have a choice in matters.
Anything Horde built, any Horde, since WotLK is just as covered in spikes as ICC and in Horde Structures they are more of a presence sinc they aren't placed at natural angles.
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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
posted April 04, 2015 09:07 PM

Green=Blight/Plague. Blight is a major motif for the forsaken, virtually their landscape are filled with green, the sewers of Lordaeron are filled with green goo. You can't deny that green isn't a major color for the forsaken.Plus let's not forget that they used purple quite frequently in the h7 necropolis which you said yourself it was major color for both scourge and forsaken. Also the Scourge has the spiky Babylonian-Sumerian architecture which is nearly identical with the h6-h7 necropolis architecture, the same tiered buildings. And weren't the forsaken initially good? Well, until Cataclysm

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted April 04, 2015 09:13 PM
Edited by Galaad at 03:14, 05 Apr 2015.

Why do I think Ashan is harmful to the franchise?

Part I Business & lack of passion for the franchise

Quote:
The first time I saw actual HV, my reaction was: is this Blizzard doing some spinoff ?


Part II Absurd concepts & wide open attitude of not caring of the fan base's criticism on the matter

Erwan le Breton said:
So all this converge together we said OK: Spiders + Necromancers + Buddhists = the concept for this faction.

Erwan le Breton said:
When it comes to we dont like your world because the spiders and the undead for us make no sense, our only answer is to say for us it makes a lot of sense and we just like it and our team is behind it and thats the way it is.


Part III Business & brainwashing of the fan base.

Quote:
No need to ask yourself which are the people revealing irrelevant infos like how a faction should be played when what you are actually voting for is lore and flavor.


                                                                                                                ***

Part IV Dividing the fan base

Its been a while Ive been trying to say this, and the discussions which are going on lately under this thread proves it furthermore.

Once again, Spiderman comes to the rescue.

So, lets take back things from the beginning, again. Ubisoft buys the rights and ultimately decides to dismiss all that was done, and M. le Breton helming the franchise carrying with him the responsibility of the legacy, made no real effort as he says, in order to reach the people who could have helped him in a task where he still is as incompetent today as he was before. This first move is already by itself a total lack of respect for the brand. Yes, Ashan is M. le Bretons baby, no, the Heroes of Might & Magic franchise is not his toy to play with. I would have no problem at all with his creative vision, if it wasnt breathing life into another kind of game, using the Heroes name(!), which was delivered by the company. This is why I consider him along Ubisoft usurpers: they legally bought the rights, then treated Heroes without the slightest mark of respect. They humiliated creatures like Minos, transformed necromancers into spider-fanatics Buddhists, mutilated Sorceress & Rampart town into Legolas & Co, removed turns in a TURN-based strategy game, introduced non-random skill system, aetcetera, aetcetera, aetcetera.

Now, obviously, people were displeased by that, no matter the flaws in the previous universe.

However, during the last ten years, many people discovered the franchise under Ubisofts name, and, funny anecdote which may sounds hard to believe but, some people actually believe Ubisoft created the franchise (yes, I met one at the fan day, when I said the name Jon Van Caneghem to him, he looked at me like I a was some kind of super knowledgeable hardcore fan, which I am not, lol). Even at the blog, I read comments like Give back the franchise to Nival, the mother and father of the brand.
So, during these ten years of Ashanification of the franchise, of course, some people discovered it like that, and like it as it is now, and there is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong though, is when these people go on a crusade (quite ironic aint it) against the people who are not okay with how the franchise has turned out, and for some obscure reason shouldnt be allowed to express themselves in the forum from heroesofmightandmagic.com?  Flames wars. Who created this? Huh? My mom, maybe?
Ok, with fan base divided, Heroes 6 still failed (no matter how well it sold), so, probably in order to keep his job (or not), M. le Breton and Ubisoft decides to go Open Dev, and are forcing Ashan down our throats again, by promoting Blade Dancers and Dark Elves (among other things), making read their propaganda to fifteen year olds boys and girls. As if it wasnt enough to have bad lore, it has to reflect through the visuals, one thing NWC did not do, letting people disliking the sci-fi merging enjoy the games.

Once again, if some people enjoy Ubi-heroes, there might be nothing wrong with them, but please, let the people who dont, express themselves and explain why, which is, if you notice, most of the times, done in a much more constructive way than the constant bickering from people thinking arachnophile zen Buddhists are so cool.

The forums have never been as heated since a long time, and not because everyone is praising the tremendous work which is done in regard of the, once brilliant, Heroes of Might and Magic franchise.

Besides,
Quote:
Ashan is here to stay

So why loose your energy against grumpy old ones like us?


Thank you for reading.
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Sligneris
Sligneris


Supreme Hero
posted April 04, 2015 09:24 PM
Edited by Sligneris at 21:26, 04 Apr 2015.

About Erwan not assembling original team: Link
(a.k.a. Erwan not going out of his way to reach out to people from across the Atlantic)

About Ashan's Necropolis: Link
(or scroll up, if you will - it's on this page ffs)

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Galaad, pretending that counterarguments don't exist does not make your position any more valid, you know.

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