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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Phoenix
Thread: Phoenix This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted September 17, 2014 04:59 AM

MattII said:
The faction was called the Necropolis, so no, it's not mere sect of the wizards, but a separate faction, only, half a century before it's supposed to be even a reasonable power within the cities, and over two centuries before it's supposed to be separate. The fact is, Ubisoft is crap at sticking to even its own limitations.


The fact is, you haven't even read the post above.
Yes, for a short time Necro got a complete control over the military (after Orc incident and before Contruct army) and necromancers were quite powerful, but the cult wasn't really big in numbers. There were even internal disputes, because Necromancers were becoming more and more religious after Mother Namtaru's return while Belketh and his followers only respected Asha, not worshipped her.
Also remember Miranda's words from H6: she said that Necromancers aren't so powerful to wage a war against the Holy Empire (that's why she wanted to hand Nastya over to the Angels).
As was stated before, no Necromancer at the time of H6 was sitting in the ruling council of Wizards. Techninally, they holded a short grip over the military, but the most political power was wielded by Anima + Materia (they most likely united against necro).
And it should be noted that Necro as a whole doesn't want that power either. They are either religious fanatics or devout scholars. But the promise of eternal life and dark powers made their part and over the centuries Necro really gor quite big and even get seats at the Circle.
The only reason why Necro is a faction in H6 is fanservice.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 17, 2014 05:39 AM
Edited by MattII at 05:55, 17 Sep 2014.

Be nice to see evidence they were in any way a part of the Cities, like say the lineup being basically a wizard one with a couple of undead, but no, it's a totally undead lineup. It's also basically the same as a Nazi army popping up during WW1.

Anyway, this is getting off-topic. My original thought was that anyone who claims something can't happen 'because of the lore' of Ashan (in this case that the Phoenix can't be in Sylvan) is going to have to face the fact that Ubisoft's own views of the lore are pretty flexible.

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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted September 17, 2014 11:03 AM

MattII said:
Anyway, this is getting off-topic. My original thought was that anyone who claims something can't happen 'because of the lore' of Ashan (in this case that the Phoenix can't be in Sylvan) is going to have to face the fact that Ubisoft's own views of the lore are pretty flexible.


Like they say, "there're no such thing as facts - only interpretations." Ubi employer said that there's no retcon - but you're gonna argue with him, good
Btw, Ashan's Phoenixes fit into Sylvan.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 17, 2014 11:33 AM
Edited by MattII at 11:47, 17 Sep 2014.

Sandro400 said:
Like they say, "there're no such thing as facts - only interpretations." Ubi employer said that there's no retcon - but you're gonna argue with him, good
So what you're saying is that an employee of Ubisoft is saying that the company itself has little or no regard for its own canon? That's just about the final nail in the coffin for anyone trying to take Ashan seriously.

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted September 17, 2014 11:42 AM

Sandro400 said:
Like they say, "there're no such thing as facts - only interpretations."
Even the part where dragons created everything?

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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted September 17, 2014 12:11 PM
Edited by Sandro400 at 12:16, 17 Sep 2014.

MattII said:
So what you're saying is that an employee of Ubisoft is saying that the company itself has little or no regard for its own canon? That's just about the final nail in the coffin for anyone trying to take Ashan seriously.


Omg, sometimes I feel like people aren't capable of actually reading what they're quoting If you see a retcon somewhere, that juuust your opinion and nothing else. Of course you won't (intentionally or not) see that Necro was indeed part of Academy in H6. It's just stated in the game so many times, "Necromansers of the Seven Cities"...

Avirosb said:
Even the part where dragons created everything?


I was talking about real world there, not fictional, but I think you should play MMXL if you haven't. It has quite interesting lore books that answer your question perfectly.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 17, 2014 12:14 PM

Sandro400 said:
MattII said:
So what you're saying is that an employee of Ubisoft is saying that the company itself has little or no regard for its own canon? That's just about the final nail in the coffin for anyone trying to take Ashan seriously.


Omg, sometimes I feel like people aren't capable of actually reading what they're quoting If you see a retcon somewhere, that juuust your opinion and nothing else.
Maybe you could point me at the piece of literature when Ubisoft on any way explains how a group that wasn't even supposed to be that big a part of a faction they were in at the time suddenly has the own, separate faction?

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted September 17, 2014 12:20 PM

Sandro400 said:
If you see a retcon somewhere, that juuust your opinion and nothing else.


well he has a perfectly fair point about this,
I mean you have to admit it was an unreasonable leap of logic to have such vast, organised Necropolis armies roaming the whole world in H6 before the rise of the necromancers even took place on the timeline lol

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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted September 17, 2014 12:23 PM
Edited by Sandro400 at 12:32, 17 Sep 2014.

MattII said:
Maybe you could point me at the piece of literature when Ubisoft on any way explains how a group that wasn't even supposed to be that big a part of a faction they were in at the time suddenly has the own, separate faction?


In H6 necromancer cult has already existed for century. You think it's not enough to have their own power? But in the Seven Cities they were overall not so powerful and not even represented in the ruling council.
Necro got it's own faction because of fanservice.
And no one seems to be angry with Orcs, who don't even have government and are just a bucnh of scattered clans
Also, really, from where did you get info that Necro wasn't so powerful at that time? Because I just looked at Dark Messiah and in that game Necro Rise is 461-660 YSD. I believe you got your dates from the official source, yes?

verriker said:
well he has a perfectly fair point about this,
I mean you have to admit it was an unreasonable leap of logic to have such vast, organised Necropolis armies roaming the whole world in H6 before the rise of the necromancers even took place on the timeline lol


The lol is, in DMoM&M the timeline is actually says 461-660 YSD. From where did he get different numbers?
P.S.: can I somehow insert an image directly from my computer or can I do it only by URL?

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 17, 2014 12:39 PM

Sandro400 said:
In H6 necromancer cult has already existed for century. You think it's not enough to have their own power?
Not as a separate faction, no.

Quote:
But in the Seven Cities they were overall not so powerful and not even represented in the ruling council.
The Seven Cities were at the time their exclusive home, that's clearly stated in both timelines

Quote:
Necro got it's own faction because of fanservice.
Exactly, fan-service, and with no attempts to reconcile their being there with any sort of previously-released source material.

Quote:
And no one seems to be angry with Orcs, who don't even have government and are just a bucnh of scattered clans
The rebellion was a century before, and the crusades stopped 60 years before, so by this time, yes the Orcs would have set up their own faction. Also, it's stated there are several different groups of orcs.

Quote:
Also, really, from where did you get info that Necro wasn't so powerful at that time? Because I just looked at Dark Messiah and in that game Necro Rise is 461-660 YSD. I believe you got your dates from the official source, yes?
A mix of the H5 and H6 timelines. Also, your sources should clearly state they rose within the bounds of the Cities, not outside them, thus a separate necropolis faction makes no sense.

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted September 17, 2014 12:42 PM

Sandro400 said:
The lol is, in DMoM&M the timeline is actually says 461-660 YSD. From where did he get different numbers?


couldn't tell you about Dark Messiah but I guarantee Ubisoft definitely said it was 610-660 during H5, the old sources on the Ubi website are actually down now after years but here is one copy paste for instance, also mirrored in the timeline at AoH

certainly looks like there's been a retcon to me lol

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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted September 17, 2014 03:34 PM
Edited by Sandro400 at 15:51, 17 Sep 2014.

MattII said:
Not as a separate faction, no.


Why not? Where's been giving the criteria for a faction?

Quote:
The Seven Cities were at the time their exclusive home, that's clearly stated in both timelines


The Seven Cities are home to both the Wizards (Academy) and Necro. That's clearly stated everywhere.

Quote:
Exactly, fan-service


At least we agree on something.

Quote:
The rebellion was a century before, and the crusades stopped 60 years before, so by this time, yes the Orcs would have set up their own faction. Also, it's stated there are several different groups of orcs.


And Necromancy started a century ago, but they have a strict order within their ranks, but Orcs are just a bunch of scattered clans - yeah-yeah, they are divided into 3 MAJOR groups, but those groups themselves are without unity. They don't even have something close to a government. And no one's complaining.
Maybe it's because your definition of a "faction" varies from other people's definition?

Quote:
A mix of the H5 and H6 timelines. Also, your sources should clearly state they rose within the bounds of the Cities, not outside them, thus a separate necropolis faction makes no sense.


You know that H5 timeline (presented by you) is from unofficial source and H6 is from official site, don't you?
AFAIK, that H5 timeline was created not by Ubi, but by Nival. And originally it was posted on their forums. I hope Marzhin can confirm that. Though Ubi's and Nival's share a lot, they actually have different details.
DM, on the other hand, is an official source released in 2006. So even if retcon takes place, it was done many years before H6. Will you beleive me or should I post the image?
Two factions can coexist within the same country, there's no problem with it. It happens even in the real life.
Btw, if you hate Ashan, go on to the DoC. That's where personally I experience multiple facepalms and fully acknowledge that they mess up with Ashan lore (Sandor as dark mage, but wielding a sword, is just one example).

verriker said:
couldn't tell you about Dark Messiah but I guarantee Ubisoft definitely said it was 610-660 during H5, the old sources on the Ubi website are actually down now after years but here is one copy paste for instance, also mirrored in the timeline at AoH

certainly looks like there's been a retcon to me lol


Well I can tell about DM and its 461-660 YSD and AFAIK that timeline wasn't created/published by Ubi, although they share a lot. And your link is broken btw

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted September 17, 2014 06:11 PM

Sandro400 said:
Well I can tell about DM and its 461-660 YSD and AFAIK that timeline wasn't created/published by Ubi, although they share a lot. And your link is broken btw


it works fine for me, but here you go, here's some even more undeniable proof published right on Ubisoft's official site, lol

461 YSD: Discovery of Necromancy
Belketh, a disciple of Sar-Shazzar, discovers the path of Necromancy. Necromantic experimentations begin in the Seven Cities.

610-660 YSD: Rise of the Necromancers
The Necromancer presence grows until they are a powerful political force in the Seven Cities

so you see, if the rise of the necromancers isn't going to happen for decades, it's really silly to have necromancers everywhere

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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted September 17, 2014 07:22 PM
Edited by Sandro400 at 19:23, 17 Sep 2014.

verriker said:
it works fine for me, but here you go, here's some even more undeniable proof published right on Ubisoft's official site, lol

461 YSD: Discovery of Necromancy
Belketh, a disciple of Sar-Shazzar, discovers the path of Necromancy. Necromantic experimentations begin in the Seven Cities.

610-660 YSD: Rise of the Necromancers
The Necromancer presence grows until they are a powerful political force in the Seven Cities

so you see, if the rise of the necromancers isn't going to happen for decades, it's really silly to have necromancers everywhere


Ok, that is, yes, proof.

But, much depends on the interpretation. It can be very easily interpreted that H6's Necro isn't such a powerful force in Ashan. They didn't even had a representative in Wizards' ruling class. It's like they were newly founded (relatively) but became big in numbers due to the promise of immortality. Miranda in-game admitted that Necro wasn't powerful enough to deny Holy Empire and for that reason wanted to turn in Anastasya.
What Necro really did in H6? Anastasya with her small army captured Castlerose, that ended in a political scandal which could have igninted a war with Necro and their destruction. Then she fought with some Orc survivors, demons and defeated Miranda - that's all a local conflict. The only big major event - battle in ill-fated valley with demons and subsequent march on Karthal. That's all, really - just for a short time they holded a grip over the military, but the Construct army was soon created.
Yes, they had a faction, but I would say that Necro faction is more fair than Orcs, 'cos undead at least have some order within them and are united. Ofc, there's a matter of fan-service and tradition as well.
And then, in 610-660 YSD, Necro really rose to great power within 7Cities. Like, having grand army, obtaining treasures and cities, annexing the large territory of Heresh (in H6, they were just setling in). And they got some real political power, having like, let's say, half of the Circle being Undead represantative.
It should also be noted that Necro wasn't so powerhungry. So yeah, the Cult existed, but they were religious fanatics and scholars, which don't want to mess with power because it will distract them from greater things. But at some point more ambitious Death Lords (like Miranda) came and changed the faction, involving in Wizards' race for power and dominance. It came to a point where Holy Empire went to sign peace treaty with Necro (not with Wizards, but with Necro in particular).
I should also say that Necro army isn't so diffucult to create. They're the Undead, after all
I don't think that you can say that my interpretation can't be real. Anyway, even if it's retcon, it was done way too before H6.

Really, people. If you want to nag at Ashan, there 're so many other opportunities rather than this

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 17, 2014 09:49 PM
Edited by MattII at 22:39, 17 Sep 2014.

So you're saying that despite Ubisoft's own evidence, it was entirely reasonable for this little band of death-worshippers, living wholly within the wizard cities to have their own unique faction? Sorry, not buying it.

As for the orcs, yes it's actually viable for them to have their own faction, they've been independent of anyone for a century, although only the last 60 years were at peace.

Oh, and my definition of a faction is having a complete, 7-creature lineup, which was viable for the orcs (despite their being relatively weak), but not for necropolis. Seriously, wizards aren't stupid, they'll spot giant spiders walking around, not to mention all the uranium-green glowing stuff.

Or to put it another way, it makes no sense for Tinet to have its own armed forces, but it does for Taiwan. Different circumstances see.

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Alex_Yakub
Alex_Yakub


Famous Hero
posted September 17, 2014 10:56 PM

Um, guys, what does Necropolis has to do with pheonix?
Anyway, I was against the pheonix at first, but when circumstances forced me to change my vote from Strength to Balance, I warmed up to this birdy, and now even miss its position in Sorceress's town from my beloved Heroes2 (and Heroes1)
____________

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 17, 2014 11:20 PM

Someone commented that putting the Phoenix in Sylvan would clash with previously established canon, but I was making the point that since Necropolis was in H6 that the canon was holey enough that pretty much anything could go without much comment.

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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted September 18, 2014 07:38 AM
Edited by Sandro400 at 07:42, 18 Sep 2014.

MattII said:
So you're saying that despite Ubisoft's own evidence, it was entirely reasonable for this little band of death-worshippers, living wholly within the wizard cities to have their own unique faction? Sorry, not buying it.

As for the orcs, yes it's actually viable for them to have their own faction, they've been independent of anyone for a century, although only the last 60 years were at peace.

Oh, and my definition of a faction is having a complete, 7-creature lineup, which was viable for the orcs (despite their being relatively weak), but not for necropolis. Seriously, wizards aren't stupid, they'll spot giant spiders walking around, not to mention all the uranium-green glowing stuff.

Or to put it another way, it makes no sense for Tinet to have its own armed forces, but it does for Taiwan. Different circumstances see.


Ohhh... what evidence? They weren't living wholly within 7cities. They started to dwell Heresh in H6 and gained some semblance of autonomy, while within the wizard kingdom (oficially). For a short time, they were literally the whole Wizard army. They have their infrastructure, army, everything. The whole Seven Cities are a confederation, each House and even town have a degree of autonomy, they are akin to USSR and somewhat like USA (in terms of territorial administration) plain and simple. And Ancient Greece polis-cities.
But 610-600 are a time when they rose to a political power, threatining to de-facto take away others' independence (or so the Wizards thought).
Btw, the new Haven is entirely composed of Wolf Duchy. One part of the Holy Empire. You have no objections, right?

Whaaaat? Even with your definition of the faction Necro fits in, cause they had those 7 units, one of which (Lamasu) was created shortly before H6. It is a complete and viable lineup. If they had made purely Construct Academy, even that will fit.

You mean Tibet? It's a part of China, which is a unitary state, not even a federation. Taiwan's status, on the other hand, is a matter of debate.

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted September 18, 2014 08:30 AM

Sandro400 said:
Btw, the new Haven is entirely composed of Wolf Duchy. One part of the Holy Empire. You have no objections, right?
I do...

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 18, 2014 08:54 AM

Sandro400 said:
Ohhh... what evidence? They weren't living wholly within 7cities. They started to dwell Heresh in H6 and gained some semblance of autonomy, while within the wizard kingdom (oficially). For a short time, they were literally the whole Wizard army. They have their infrastructure, army, everything. The whole Seven Cities are a confederation, each House and even town have a degree of autonomy, they are akin to USSR and somewhat like USA (in terms of territorial administration) plain and simple. And Ancient Greece polis-cities.
You have proof of that? Actual written proof dated prior to the release of H6? If not then it's a retcon.

Quote:
Btw, the new Haven is entirely composed of Wolf Duchy. One part of the Holy Empire. You have no objections, right?
There's a civil war going on at this time, so it's entirely possible that for a few years the Wolf Duchy does indeed control the capital, though from what we know it's clear that at this point, who sits on the throne is not all-powerful within the empire.

Quote:
Whaaaat? Even with your definition of the faction Necro fits in, cause they had those 7 units, one of which (Lamasu) was created shortly before H6. It is a complete and viable lineup.
Yes, but this is at a time where it isn't viable for them, at least, according to all previous documentation.

Quote:
You mean Tibet? It's a part of China, which is a unitary state, not even a federation. Taiwan's status, on the other hand, is a matter of debate.
Yes, and the Necropolis was part of the Seven cities while the orcs were a free people.

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