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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Which Phoenix Do You Want to See?
Thread: Which Phoenix Do You Want to See? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV
AcidDragon
AcidDragon


Promising
Famous Hero
who lost his body somehow...
posted September 24, 2014 02:59 PM

Although I do believe that in this case HoMM tradition should stand over any Ashan lore (worlds and storylines come and go, but the Heroes series is eternal ), I can live with a blue/silver Phoenix... IF the upgrade is warm and golden .

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jhb
jhb


Famous Hero
posted September 24, 2014 04:07 PM
Edited by jhb at 16:15, 24 Sep 2014.

AcidDragon said:
Although I do believe that in this case HoMM tradition should stand over any Ashan lore (worlds and storylines come and go, but the Heroes series is eternal ), I can live with a blue/silver Phoenix... IF the upgrade is warm and golden .


Remember that they could be good neutrals and summonable spells, both options with the upgraded version too. =P

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AcidDragon
AcidDragon


Promising
Famous Hero
who lost his body somehow...
posted September 24, 2014 04:26 PM

Yes, that's true. It would be a first time if a neutral creature had an upgraded form, but it's not impossible.

But then again - HoMM tradition, which I value over "everything Ashan" (storywise).
Probably everybody here knows that Phoenixes joined Elves in 3 Heroes games (Heroes I, II and IV). But actually it's a little more than that.
In Heroes III, in the Conflux actually some heroes were also Elves (Ciele, for example) and this is also the place where Pixies and Sprites dwelled. Add to that the fact that in Heroes IV the Elementals were part of the Nature alignment and you'll see, that the Conflux was very close to Sylvan/Nature/Rampart all along.
The Phoenixes would also make it to the Nature alignment in Heroes V if not for the bancrupcy of 3DO. But the Phoenix was actually the first official graphic released by NWC when they announced the game.

So - to sum up - in all 5 cases the Phoenix lived with the Elves, Pixies and Sprites and had a fiery form. Nobody complained.

And then came Ashan...

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Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted September 24, 2014 04:53 PM

By that logic we can also put dragons in haven, as every(black) dragon faction had also (a few) human heroes.

Conflux was not a nature faction in the sense that we use that word. It was an elemental faction, where the phoenix fitted in perfectly. Had the phoenix been in rampart I would definitely have disliked that, so I'm happy they used the green/gold dragon instead.

NWC H5 did not happen, so saying that the phoenix was with the elves in H5 is nonsense. Also NWC H5 would not have played in Ashan, nor did the first 4 instalments. Lore and creature affiliations established in the last 2 games are much much much more important for H7 (which plays in Ashan) than that of the old games.

Furthermore, the old factions were created in a different way than those of Ashan, so what might have fitted then not necessarily has to fit now.

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hammerhand
hammerhand


Hired Hero
posted September 24, 2014 05:10 PM

Steyn said:
By that logic we can also put dragons in haven, as every(black) dragon faction had also (a few) human heroes.

Conflux was not a nature faction in the sense that we use that word. It was an elemental faction, where the phoenix fitted in perfectly. Had the phoenix been in rampart I would definitely have disliked that, so I'm happy they used the green/gold dragon instead.

NWC H5 did not happen, so saying that the phoenix was with the elves in H5 is nonsense. Also NWC H5 would not have played in Ashan, nor did the first 4 instalments. Lore and creature affiliations established in the last 2 games are much much much more important for H7 (which plays in Ashan) than that of the old games.

Furthermore, the old factions were created in a different way than those of Ashan, so what might have fitted then not necessarily has to fit now.

of cause we can put dragon in haven. human worship dragon £¬why they can't keep dragon in town£¿

gold dragon don't fit rampart£¬ cuz gold dragon usually represent light£¬ not nature.

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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 24, 2014 05:34 PM
Edited by Protolisk at 17:34, 24 Sep 2014.

Steyn said:
By that logic we can also put dragons in haven, as every(black) dragon faction had also (a few) human heroes.



Technically, technically, we could, as Elrath's bound to have some children lying around.



However, I am not saying this should be the case, just that it could happen. I'd much rather they be neutrals or a boss, and not tied into a faction. However, on the other hand, their opposites, the Black Dragons, are numerous enough to be included among a faction, along with Earth Dragons also being numerous enough, and fire dragons at least exist in Fortress... why are there so little light/water/air dragons?

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AcidDragon
AcidDragon


Promising
Famous Hero
who lost his body somehow...
posted September 24, 2014 05:38 PM

Steyn said:
By that logic we can also put dragons in haven, as every(black) dragon faction had also (a few) human heroes.


Humans are... special. They are just downright in every facion, also in Ashan. But I get your point.

Steyn said:
Conflux was not a nature faction in the sense that we use that word.


I did not say that. I said it was close.

Steyn said:
NWC H5 did not happen, so saying that the phoenix was with the elves in H5 is nonsense.


I did not say that. I said it would have.

Steyn said:
Lore and creature affiliations established in the last 2 games are much much much more important for H7 (which plays in Ashan) than that of the old games.


To you. And I respect that.
To me Heroes 7 may be set in Ashan, on XEEN or in Arthurian England, for all I care. But if it doesn't follow the tradition of previous installments, then to me it may not even be part of the series anymore.

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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 24, 2014 06:15 PM

AcidDragon said:

To me Heroes 7 may be set in Ashan, on XEEN or in Arthurian England, for all I care. But if it doesn't follow the tradition of previous installments, then to me it may not even be part of the series anymore.


So, when Heroes 3 came out, was it not a true Heroes game for not keeping with the tradition of having Peasant- Archer- Pike-men- Swordsman- Cavalry- Paladin? Because I see no paladin or peasant among that line up in H3.
Was it not in the series because Rampart didn't have a phoenix, and instead a dragon? It also didn't have a pixie, was that in tradition? I also don't spy a druid, and that goes completely against tradition.
Was it not in the series because the Griffin was now part of Castle? Was it not in the series because Gargoyle was not in dungeon, or centaur, or hydra?
Wolves were suddenly being rode, this did not certainly fit tradition. Trolls were kicked out. That wasn't the tradition so far.
Suddenly there is a 7th tier. That in no way fits the tradition of a 6 unit cap. Suddenly there are upgrades for each faction unit. Heroes 1 had no upgrades, and heroes 2 had only a few upgrades. This tradition, too, was broken.

Heroes 3 did not fit into tradition for pretty much 1/3 to 2/3 of the line ups for each original faction. Clearly, Heroes 3 is not a true Heroes game, as it changed roughly half the aspects. At least, by going with the tradition argument.

And then we get to Heroes 4, which broke so many "traditions" by the time Heroes 3 was done. Is it a Heroes game?

Tradition is pretty meaningless by itself.

To say that it must follow traditions is a slippery slope. What traditions must the game follow?

Must Phoenixes be in Sylvan by now? According to past games... nope. Phoenixes have been in "Sylvan" as many times as it has not.

If 3/6 is "tradition", then one could also say it is "tradition" to not have them in Sylvan. If fact, since more recent games have not had them, it is getting more of a "tradition" to keep them out.

Furthermore, so far, must Phoenixes be a red bird by now? Phoenixes have been outright flaming birds 3 times, in H3, H4, and H5. It was only a red bird in H1 and H2, and a blue one in H6. "Tradition" states it must be a fiery bird. Must we always follow tradition?

Furthermore, it was "tradition" by now to have Bone Dragons in Necropolis as their strongest unit, as this occurred about 4/5 times they appeared. Has that been so well received? It's also been "tradition" to have a slow zombie, as 3/5. Was that so well received? It was tradition for 3/5 games to have melee skeletons, and then suddenly, it was possibly ranged in H5. Was the keeping of tradition helpful here?

Humans have been predominately humans, making up 4/7 the whole faction as a whole at the least, and at most 100%. Is this tradition well received?

The point I'm trying to make here, is that if you keep to ideals of tradition, you are going to get a largely similar game time after time. This makes the series bland, as there is no changes.

It is the ideas of "traditions" that come and go. A game can march on, and while it can respect its roots, it does not need to copy them at all times in order to preserve some semblance of "tradition" to succeed. Doing so causes death to the series.

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AcidDragon
AcidDragon


Promising
Famous Hero
who lost his body somehow...
posted September 24, 2014 06:45 PM
Edited by AcidDragon at 19:04, 24 Sep 2014.

Protolisk said:
So, when Heroes 3 came out, was it not a true Heroes game for not keeping with the tradition of having Peasant- Archer- Pike-men- Swordsman- Cavalry- Paladin?


Again somebody is reading something that I did not write.
I did not write that any Heroes game breaking the tradition is automatically "not a Heroes game".

I said that for me "it may not even be part of the series anymore". As in - in an extreme case, where so many traditions will be broken, that it's practically a different game.

On the other hand, if the authors completely changed the lore, the storyline, the mythology, the universe and retconed everything - we could still get a "true" Heroes game. Which is exactly what happened with Heroes V.

It's true that Heroes III broke a lot of H1/H2 traditions. The Phoenix was one of them. However thanks to the Conflux I didn't mind it that much.

It's also true that Heroes IV broke a lot of traditions. But - contrary to Heroes III - those changes weren't accepted by many players. And yes, some people still think of Heroes IV as "not true to the series".

Protolisk said:
Must Phoenixes be in Sylvan by now?


Of course not. We will get a Heroes game with or without the Phoenix.
Heck, we can even get a Heroes game without Sylvan alltogether - which is exactly what happened with Heroes VI.

But if I have a choice - and I do - with sticking to Heroes tradition or sticking to Ashan's lore or going for something completeley new - both for Heroes games and Ashan - then I choose Heroes tradition.

Protolisk said:
The point I'm trying to make here, is that if you keep to ideals of tradition, you are going to get a largely similar game time after time.


And this is exactly what I want .
However I defnitely do not believe this will cause the series to die.
I do not like it when people say that "change" is a golden word that is automatically good. I do believe that at some point we may reach a pinacle, the place where a Heroes game simply cannot get any better and any change from that point on will be harmful. While I don't believe that this moment ever came, I do believe that Heroes III was the closest to it. And that many changes from then made the games worse, not better.

EDIT:
I will disagree with myself a bit
Before Heroes VI I thought that a Heroes game that goes that far as to not include a Sylvan/Nature/Rampart faction at all will be unsuccessful. And while Heroes VI was not very successful , it wasn't for the lack of Sylvan. So this is an example of a tradition that was broken, but turned out OK. From that point on I even look forward to seeing a Heroes game without an Inferno faction or even without a Haven faction. That may be interesting.

However making the Phoenix neutral and especially - "a spell" - for me was an example of something which changed from good to bad. And I would like Heroes 7 to come back to the tradition of NWC games in that regard.

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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 24, 2014 09:28 PM

AcidDragon said:
Protolisk said:
So, when Heroes 3 came out, was it not a true Heroes game for not keeping with the tradition of having Peasant- Archer- Pike-men- Swordsman- Cavalry- Paladin?


Again somebody is reading something that I did not write.
I did not write that any Heroes game breaking the tradition is automatically "not a Heroes game".


Technically, you did write it. However, I can easily concede that the written word often loses the emphasis that can be placed on words when spoken aloud. You ended up rewriting it in bold, for emphasis. I wouldn't have known your emphasis without it. As the original sentence stood, it seemed like you meant "if it doesn't follow traditions, then it might not be part of the series." Which is either a terribly vague sentence (It might? Anything might be) or is implying that it "is" not part of the series. I did not mean to put words into your mouth, but it is hard to read intent when you don't have overly obvious tone. Your clarification helps wonderfully.

Quote:
Protolisk said:
The point I'm trying to make here, is that if you keep to ideals of tradition, you are going to get a largely similar game time after time.


And this is exactly what I want .
However I defnitely do not believe this will cause the series to die.
I do not like it when people say that "change" is a golden word that is automatically good. I do believe that at some point we may reach a pinacle, the place where a Heroes game simply cannot get any better and any change from that point on will be harmful. While I don't believe that this moment ever came, I do believe that Heroes III was the closest to it. And that many changes from then made the games worse, not better.


Let us both agree to disagree here. Stagnation will kill a series, in my eyes, while evolution and adaptation may kill it, or keep it afloat or even let it rise above everything. That is to say that change isn't "golden" like you say, but without any change, there is no real point in buying a new game, just keep the old one, and again, there is no point to a new, completely similar game. If I wanted Sylvan to be like H5's line up, I'd go play H5. If I wanted it to be like H3, I'd go play H3. I'd like something both similar and different. Much like the change between H2 Warlock and H3 Dungeon, this is what I mean.

Quote:

I will disagree with myself a bit
Before Heroes VI I thought that a Heroes game that goes that far as to not include a Sylvan/Nature/Rampart faction at all will be unsuccessful. And while Heroes VI was not very successful , it wasn't for the lack of Sylvan. So this is an example of a tradition that was broken, but turned out OK. From that point on I even look forward to seeing a Heroes game without an Inferno faction or even without a Haven faction. That may be interesting.

However making the Phoenix neutral and especially - "a spell" - for me was an example of something which changed from good to bad. And I would like Heroes 7 to come back to the tradition of NWC games in that regard.


I would be okay with some factions missing, but, at some point, I'd like them "all" to appear, and hopefully new ones. (come on, swamp fortress, make a comeback in some form!)

I find the idea of a phoenix pretty boring. It is a bird, and it is big, and it might be on fire, it might not, and it self resurrects. It's not like I haven't seen the Arch Angels resurrect friends, or vampires resurrect themselves by killing enemies. They are nice to look at, but it just feels like something that shouldn't belong so much in a war game at large, in big quantities. They never felt very "offensive", from H3 to H6. They tended to even have superior numbers in H3, which made it seem even weaker to me. If they self-resurrect, make it meaningful, which I felt did a good job in H5 and H6, all things considered.

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PhoenixMK
PhoenixMK


Hired Hero
Burn baby, BURN!!!
posted September 24, 2014 10:45 PM


____________
"I'm Phoenix. If I die it's only to be reborn — hopefully better and brighter than before."

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted September 24, 2014 11:07 PM

inb4 'it burns the forest' comments.
____________

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