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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Battle of the Bluebirds - The Phoenix / Magic Bird issue
Thread: Battle of the Bluebirds - The Phoenix / Magic Bird issue This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT»
Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted September 21, 2014 02:40 AM

adriancat said:
Elvin said:
adriancat said:
But that damn blue chicken isn't . Goooo FURY !!!

Check again, we get golden/blazing red phoenix upgrade


Blue Chicken, Red Chicken, Yellow Chicken . It's still a chicken

Green humanoid #1, Green humanoid #2, Green humanoid #3, Green humanoid #4...they're all green humanoids!
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 21, 2014 09:12 AM

Sphinx would also be my suggestion for a replacement for the Arcane Bird in Academy. It fits the arabian theme, it's a flyer, and it has a strong mythological foundation. Only problem is it might be too close to what's-their-name we had in Necropolis in H6 if they choose to have those still in the game.

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Alex_Yakub
Alex_Yakub


Famous Hero
posted September 21, 2014 10:31 AM

alcibiades said:
Sphinx would also be my suggestion for a replacement for the Arcane Bird in Academy. It fits the arabian theme, it's a flyer, and it has a strong mythological foundation. Only problem is it might be too close to what's-their-name we had in Necropolis in H6 if they choose to have those still in the game.

And don't forget they will most likely be beastmen, and we already have a half-lion, half-human in the Academy lineup.
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Royin
Royin


Adventuring Hero
posted September 21, 2014 10:41 AM

Well we don't get to vote for Academy so...

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RMZ1989
RMZ1989


Supreme Hero
posted September 21, 2014 10:51 AM

Storm-Giant said:
adriancat said:
Elvin said:
adriancat said:
But that damn blue chicken isn't . Goooo FURY !!!

Check again, we get golden/blazing red phoenix upgrade


Blue Chicken, Red Chicken, Yellow Chicken . It's still a chicken

Green humanoid #1, Green humanoid #2, Green humanoid #3, Green humanoid #4...they're all green humanoids!

With different look, abilities, roles and training. We already know why that argument is stupid.

Unlike Birds that will probably have very similar role and look, and the same problem was with Dragons in previous games. They weren't really different from each other except for the color and few abilities.
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adriancat
adriancat


Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
posted September 21, 2014 11:01 AM

Storm-Giant said:
adriancat said:
Elvin said:
adriancat said:
But that damn blue chicken isn't . Goooo FURY !!!

Check again, we get golden/blazing red phoenix upgrade


Blue Chicken, Red Chicken, Yellow Chicken . It's still a chicken

Green humanoid #1, Green humanoid #2, Green humanoid #3, Green humanoid #4...they're all green humanoids!


If you like birds more than humans, maybe you are a bird too.

P.S. It's normal to have more humanoids than chickens in Heroes 7, because it isn't named Birds of Might (Phoenix-chicken) and Magic (Magic Bird-chicken), but Heroes of Might and Magic

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Royin
Royin


Adventuring Hero
posted September 21, 2014 11:04 AM
Edited by Royin at 11:07, 21 Sep 2014.

RMZ1989 said:
Storm-Giant said:
adriancat said:
Elvin said:
adriancat said:
But that damn blue chicken isn't . Goooo FURY !!!

Check again, we get golden/blazing red phoenix upgrade


Blue Chicken, Red Chicken, Yellow Chicken . It's still a chicken

Green humanoid #1, Green humanoid #2, Green humanoid #3, Green humanoid #4...they're all green humanoids!

With different look, abilities, roles and training. We already know why that argument is stupid.

Unlike Birds that will probably have very similar role and look, and the same problem was with Dragons in previous games. They weren't really different from each other except for the color and few abilities.

Well Haven is going to have a shooter with a crossbow while Sylvan will have one with a normal bow, should we just get rid of that too because they look too similar and their roles are the exact same?

The arguments are just as silly from both sides. Whenever Fury supporters bring up how there's a blue phoenix (which has already been confirmed over and over will have a different color when it upgrades) which will have the same role as the Arcane Bird. Even though they don't know that's true. But whenever we bring up that Fury's line-up is very generic or has creatures with actual poor offensive properties or a lot of humanoids we have to stfu because we don't know what they will end up like :/

Because god forbid there should be 2 birds in the same game. I can tell where the outrage is coming from, never in the history of ever has it happened before.

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RMZ1989
RMZ1989


Supreme Hero
posted September 21, 2014 12:06 PM
Edited by RMZ1989 at 12:07, 21 Sep 2014.

I have no problem with two birds in the game that look different from each other, have different roles and abilities, but they don't. Just the fact that description of the Phoenix is that it will be flyer with supporting abilities is weird to me, because that is exactly what I've expected from Magic Bird since Academy isn't really aggressive faction. Also, Elven Archers aren't looking even close to Crossbowmen.

And I don't get the argument "like it hasn't happened before"... it has, that is the whole freaking problem. It shouldn't be happening anymore. It wasn't good before and it certainly isn't better now.

EDIT: Oh and btw, I am not one of those Fury defenders, I am just Phoenix hater. That won't change, so I would be fine with any mix of the given lineups without Phoenix.

Push the Phoenix in the Academy instead of Magic Bird and that is it.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 21, 2014 12:16 PM

Well I can just repeat what I said earlier, you can't compare humanoids to magical beasts on a 1:1 basis. That fact that there are several humanoids that fill the same role (like several ranged humanoids, several casters, etc.) is not quite the same as having two magical beasts that - imo. - fill such identical roles: Both are birds, both are champions, both are blue (at least until what we knew recently, now we have conflicting information, and if the info about it being golden on upgrade becomes confirmed, at least that's a huge step in the right direction).

Then there's the problem with the actual creatures. The fact that Phoenix' role in Sylvan is questionable has already been covered well. I would like to rather focus on the ridiculousness of having a creature called "Magic Bird". I mean, think about that for a moment. It would be similar to having a unit in the Academy line-up called "Spellcaster". Magic Bird is something that it is, it's not the name of the creature. Hell, Phoenix is a magic bird, if you go down to basics, which goes well to show the ridicule of this.

So going a bit further into this "Magic Bird" idea; as someone else in this thread says, it may have its inspiration in the Egyptian mythology. So doing a search for birds in Egyptian mythology to see if one can find something useful, the first hit that comes up is Bennu, about whom one can read:
Quote:
The Bennu is an ancient Egyptian deity linked with the sun, creation, and rebirth. It may have been the inspiration for the phoenix in Greek mythology.

Meh! But then again, almost every Egyptian deity seems to have a bird depiction, so maybe the inspiration is indeed Horus (hawk head) like someone mentioned, but then couldn't they at least have come up with a proper name for it?

And just on a final note, I have no problem with several "birds" in the game. Previous heroes games had both Firebird/Phoenix and Roc/Thunderbird in them and that worked fine, because these creatures were both different in thematics and role (level). I just don't see this difference in this case.

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blizz
blizz


Known Hero
of temper grace
posted September 21, 2014 12:36 PM

alcibiades said:
Well I can just repeat what I said earlier, you can't compare humanoids to magical beasts on a 1:1 basis. That fact that there are several humanoids that fill the same role (like several ranged humanoids, several casters, etc.) is not quite the same as having two magical beasts that - imo. - fill such identical roles: Both are birds, both are champions, both are blue (at least until what we knew recently, now we have conflicting information, and if the info about it being golden on upgrade becomes confirmed, at least that's a huge step in the right direction).

Then there's the problem with the actual creatures. The fact that Phoenix' role in Sylvan is questionable has already been covered well. I would like to rather focus on the ridiculousness of having a creature called "Magic Bird". I mean, think about that for a moment. It would be similar to having a unit in the Academy line-up called "Spellcaster". Magic Bird is something that it is, it's not the name of the creature. Hell, Phoenix is a magic bird, if you go down to basics, which goes well to show the ridicule of this.

So going a bit further into this "Magic Bird" idea; as someone else in this thread says, it may have its inspiration in the Egyptian mythology. So doing a search for birds in Egyptian mythology to see if one can find something useful, the first hit that comes up is Bennu, about whom one can read:
Quote:
The Bennu is an ancient Egyptian deity linked with the sun, creation, and rebirth. It may have been the inspiration for the phoenix in Greek mythology.

Meh! But then again, almost every Egyptian deity seems to have a bird depiction, so maybe the inspiration is indeed Horus (hawk head) like someone mentioned, but then couldn't they at least have come up with a proper name for it?

And just on a final note, I have no problem with several "birds" in the game. Previous heroes games had both Firebird/Phoenix and Roc/Thunderbird in them and that worked fine, because these creatures were both different in thematics and role (level). I just don't see this difference in this case.

Both have different color schemes and the shades of blues are nothing alike. I'm pretty sure developers are more than capable to give them different roles and play style so I wouldn't jump to conclusions based on their tier and look or even name. The name "magic bird" is not final and can still be changed.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 21, 2014 12:43 PM

They definitively look very similar. There's a ton of units for both Sylvan and Academy that can be the champion tier - there's little need to use the copypasta monsters. I think phoenix is cool, but the magic bird thing is just.. meh. Aren't titans iconic enough?
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Royin
Royin


Adventuring Hero
posted September 21, 2014 12:50 PM

Academy doesn't accept anything that worships a god as they are atheists by nature preferring logic and scholarship, which pretty much excludes any Sylvan unit... including the Phoenix which is apparently tied to a God they don't believe in.

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Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted September 21, 2014 12:54 PM

I think you are slightly mistaken there. The wizards do believe in the gods, only they don't worship them.

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Royin
Royin


Adventuring Hero
posted September 21, 2014 01:01 PM

Steyn said:
I think you are slightly mistaken there. The wizards do believe in the gods, only they don't worship them.


Academy Description

"CORE PHILOSOPHY

“No Gods, no Masters. Knowledge is Power, and Power is Freedom”. The universe is a puzzle to be solved, by whatever means necessary."

"RELIGION

Knowledge is Wizard’s true religion. Wizards do not view the Elemental Dragons as gods, but rather as the highest form of the spiritual beings. They are either metaphors for understanding and canalizing powers, or perhaps real entities that will eventually be comprehended given time."

They don't believe in gods.


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moonshade
moonshade


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2014 01:14 PM

Possible solution

First, just rename the Magic Bird Roc/Garuda (creatures from SE Asian/Hindu myth).

Also, I think that Phoenixes SHOULD be creatures of fire and not this Moonix thing. After all, burning the forest leads to a healthier regrowth and helps spread the seeds and in real-life foresters do it all the time- so the Phoenix could serve the Elves in that aspect. They're not like Inferno- burning for the sake of burning and using fire to inflict pain and destruction for their own sake, but using fire to cull nature and help its regrowth. This way, they fit Sylvan and are still fiery creatures. And we can always say they were gifts from Arkath to Syllana, or from the Dwarves to the Elves. Thus, we've got good explanations to have creatures of fire in Sylvan, which are consistent with lore.

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Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted September 21, 2014 01:33 PM

Royin said:
Steyn said:
I think you are slightly mistaken there. The wizards do believe in the gods, only they don't worship them.


Academy Description

"CORE PHILOSOPHY

“No Gods, no Masters. Knowledge is Power, and Power is Freedom”. The universe is a puzzle to be solved, by whatever means necessary."

"RELIGION

Knowledge is Wizard’s true religion. Wizards do not view the Elemental Dragons as gods, but rather as the highest form of the spiritual beings. They are either metaphors for understanding and canalizing powers, or perhaps real entities that will eventually be comprehended given time."

They don't believe in gods.



But they do believe in the elemental dragons, they only don't see them as gods. That is totally different than simply saying they (the dragon gods) don't exist.

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Royin
Royin


Adventuring Hero
posted September 21, 2014 02:37 PM
Edited by Royin at 14:37, 21 Sep 2014.

Steyn said:
Royin said:
Steyn said:
I think you are slightly mistaken there. The wizards do believe in the gods, only they don't worship them.


Academy Description

"CORE PHILOSOPHY

“No Gods, no Masters. Knowledge is Power, and Power is Freedom”. The universe is a puzzle to be solved, by whatever means necessary."

"RELIGION

Knowledge is Wizard’s true religion. Wizards do not view the Elemental Dragons as gods, but rather as the highest form of the spiritual beings. They are either metaphors for understanding and canalizing powers, or perhaps real entities that will eventually be comprehended given time."

They don't believe in gods.



But they do believe in the elemental dragons, they only don't see them as gods. That is totally different than simply saying they (the dragon gods) don't exist.

"Wizards do not view the Elemental Dragons as gods, but rather as the highest form of the spiritual beings. They are either metaphors for understanding and canalizing powers, or perhaps real entities that will eventually be comprehended given time."
This, to me, would mean that they question their existence and therefore do not believe in them :|

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 21, 2014 02:40 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 14:41, 21 Sep 2014.

Well, I've never been much of a fan of the canon/noncanon stuff. Being true to HoMM 1-3's spirit is often more important to me.

That's why I'd go with the classic units, unless they were boring (ie. boring abilities) which makes them a poor candidate.
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Stormcaller
Stormcaller


Famous Hero
posted September 21, 2014 02:44 PM

Good god, imagine Stronghold gets Roks/Thunderbirds again. Then i'd be like, light blue bird, blue bird, brown bird and then yellow ( upgraded ) bird.

.....
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Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted September 21, 2014 02:47 PM

I was more thinking of this part:
Quote:

Knowledge is Wizard’s true religion. Wizards do not view the Elemental Dragons as gods, but rather as the highest form of the spiritual beings. They are either metaphors for understanding and canalizing powers, or perhaps real entities that will eventually be comprehended given time.


I can see your point about the wizards not believing in the dragon gods. However, they certainly acknowledge that there is a certain power which can be canalized, so what would be their problem with a bird that does this?

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