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| Thread: Haven Units and Abilities revealed |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted October 09, 2014 12:07 AM |
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Acknowledged! 0-2 abilities seems far too sparse for my liking, esp since I feel H4 tailored to my needs in this aspect fairly much. Should be more like 1-3 IMHO.
Crossbowmen without any ability? Well, ok, in h7, ranged counts as an ability but is not put down as such, therefore it doesn't count.
I personally do not like having no abilities to a unit. For example, in H4 I would split genies or nightmares to iso units. I'd pretty much favour not having to do the same in H7. Also, ranged would usually be accompanied with a subservient ability (death gaze, long range, etc.) And passive abilities don't mean much if you favor aggro gameplay.
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted October 10, 2014 11:55 AM |
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I fully agree with TDL. There's little strategy or fun involved with so few abilities per unit. What I can see with the Haven abilties presented is hardly quality over quantity, more of a recycled selection of the dullest perks there could be.
This is also true for the unupgraded and renders them, most of the time, useless. They should offen more than being cannon fodder before an upgrade, after all, they make half of the creature pool in the game.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted October 10, 2014 12:15 PM |
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Why too few abilities?
Comparing to Heroes I-V haven in Heroes VII has more abilities.
Comparing to Heroes VI it has a few less abilities but that is for example strike and return of Blazing Glory which for me is not an ability but the very sense of the unit. Same for vulnerability to Shadow Magic or Absolute Purity etc.
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Moriak71
Hired Hero
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posted October 10, 2014 04:09 PM |
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Actually I quite like that some units don't have any special ability. No need to pack them with stupid ability, just to have one extra.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 10, 2014 04:21 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 16:21, 10 Oct 2014.
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Moriak71 said:
Actually I quite like that some units don't have any special ability. No need to pack them with stupid ability, just to have one extra.
Ditto. I didn't like how in H6 there was a 'Living' "ability".
Like, everything that isn't mechanical or undead (and maybe demonic) are living by default. So redundant.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 11, 2014 03:01 AM |
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LizardWarrior said:
syth said:
Sorry but they look like french medival troops peppered with some magic :/
so... do you like neon horses? IMO a Haven/Castle town should look medieval, also I think it's good that it ain't over-fantasized , that's the faction's theme afterall
that was quite ok in H3 and H5.
in H4, what saved haven was life magic and angels (with lightsabers  )
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted October 11, 2014 09:01 PM |
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted October 11, 2014 11:45 PM |
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Edited by RMZ1989 at 23:46, 11 Oct 2014.
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NamelessOrder said:
does any1 know how OPPORTUNITY RETALIATION works?
It is most likely same thing what Praetorian had in H6.
Shield Bash.
So in short, if enemy attacks one of your units(Angel for example) in melee range and Justicar is adjacent to that enemy unit, both Angel and Justicar will retaliate on that enemy unit.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Lokheit
Known Hero
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posted October 12, 2014 03:21 AM |
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I really like the sentinel-justiciar synergy. Some are saying that the unit wont't be a glass cannon, but I think they will be BECAUSE they can afford to be thanks to the synergy (with reasonable cost reduction): place them next to sentinels and they won't be hit in melee. Further, place another unit (like your champion unit) next to them and you got some awesomeness when the sentinel absorbs the strike and the justiciar adds an extra counter to the mix. You will only need to focus heavy healing on the sentinels. It could be vulnerable to AoE but we don't know how strong will magic be.
I wrote this on the official site but I hope dryads and treants synergy is something like this: something they can do with every unit but is particularly rewarding whem acting together instead of skills that need each other to work. For example if dryads had some kind of heal or damage mitigation skill that they could use on anyone (or even some kind of healing counter when the unit is attacked) and Treants could tank like sentinels, they would still work well together but you won't need both of them to use each other skills (meaning you could pick dragons and be fine with dryads supporting other units).
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted October 12, 2014 12:40 PM |
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Lokheit said:
I really like the sentinel-justiciar synergy. Some are saying that the unit wont't be a glass cannon, but I think they will be BECAUSE they can afford to be thanks to the synergy (with reasonable cost reduction): place them next to sentinels and they won't be hit in melee. Further, place another unit (like your champion unit) next to them and you got some awesomeness when the sentinel absorbs the strike and the justiciar adds an extra counter to the mix. You will only need to focus heavy healing on the sentinels. It could be vulnerable to AoE but we don't know how strong will magic be.
I wrote this on the official site but I hope dryads and treants synergy is something like this: something they can do with every unit but is particularly rewarding whem acting together instead of skills that need each other to work. For example if dryads had some kind of heal or damage mitigation skill that they could use on anyone (or even some kind of healing counter when the unit is attacked) and Treants could tank like sentinels, they would still work well together but you won't need both of them to use each other skills (meaning you could pick dragons and be fine with dryads supporting other units).
Well problem is that it doesn't work as you think it does. Sentinels are taking part of the damage(like 50%), enemy is not suddenly changing the target to the Sentinel.
So, if you have Sentinel and Justicar adjacent to each other, if enemy attacks Justicar, Sentinel's shielding will work, but Justicar's opportunity retaliation won't work because Justicar is the one being attacked.
And if you are attacking Sentinel, then Justicar's ability will work but Sentinel's won't.
Justicar and Sentinel have more synergy with other weaker units that enemy will try to hit in melee or block(like Chaplains and Marksmen) than between each other.
Of course, all of these works only if shielding is the same as in Heroes 6, and if opportunity retaliation is the same as Shield bash in Heroes 6. I assume that they will stay the same, but they might change something.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted October 12, 2014 05:15 PM |
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First impressions of the H7 Haven Line-up
Please note that I’m exclusively a duels player and I stopped playing maps
Core Creatures
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MARKSMAN
Abilities: Piercing Shot
Very similar to H6 Marksman and I expect similar stats. I’m really glad that they left the Armor Piercing (H6)/Precise Shot (H5) ability and stayed with Piercing Shot (Piercing Bolt in H6 – the ability to shot through multiple units, including friendly ones). Armor Piercing was really strong because it allowed to target enemy shooters and kill them quicker while defending your archers turtle-style. Piercing Shot punishes camping which is a good design in my opinion. Probably will have no range penalty (although I would prefer if they get it – to prevent camping strategy) rather small defense and initiative.
SILVERBACK
Abilities: Unlimited Retaliation, Feral Charge
Wolf Duchy’s equivalent of a Griffin, Silverbacks has unlimited retaliation. The other ability, Feral Charge will probably work as activated ability that gives you a bonus to damage (and maybe even movement) but will lower your defense until his next turn. I hope he will have high initiative to take advantage of the Feral Charge – you use the wait command and then attack at the end the turn to move him again in the beginning of the next turn so your opponent cannot take full advantage of decreased defense. With low initiative using his ability might become too risky. Also the 2 abilities doesn’t really synergize since Unlimited Retaliation is defensive and works best in a blocker while Feral Charge is offensive.
LEGIONNAIRE
Abilities: Shielding
H7 equivalent of H6 Praetorian Or H5 Squire – basic defensive tank unit with appropriate ability. I guess it will work in similar fashion as Shieldguard from H6 (When an enemy attacks an adjacent friendly stack, 35% of damage is dealt to the creature with 25% reduced effect.). Those kind of units shine in PvP duel format but are rather irrelevant in map scenarios when most duels are fought against neutral creep. My only reservation is that they incentivized turtling strategies in H6 and the same might occur in H7.
Elite Creatures
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CUIRASSIER
Abilities: Charge, Bash
Standard horseman that has always been a backbone of Haven striking force. I expect overall good stats. The first ability, Charge will probably increase damage by 5-10% per each tile crossed when attacking. The second ability Bash is quite interesting. It probably won’t activate if you don’t charge – meaning you don’t move a tile when attacking. But when you do move – the enemy creature will be pushed away (I guess 1-2 tiles away from the direction of the attack) and will be stunned (decrease in initiative?). Please note that Bash means that Cuirassiers are practically immune to retaliation.
JUSTICAR
Abilities: Cleave, Opportunity Retaliation
They remind me of Crusaders from H3. Her first ability, Cleave, is basically Double Strike but there is a condition in the description: when in favourable situation. It might imply that Cleave activates only in certain situations (we saw a similar mechanics in H6 Crusher’s ability: Assault). I’d prefer if this was simply a flavorful wording and that the ability activates every time to make it more predictable and easier to learn. As always, I expect the retaliation to occur after the first strike. The second ability, Opportunity Retaliation, might be similar to Shield Bash from H6 ( When a friendly stack is attacked, the creature gets a free attack on the attacker if it is in range). Since they feel like glass cannons of Haven’s armies it might be a good idea to position them close to Legionnaires.
ABBOT
Abilities: Aura of Cleansing, Ranged Retaliation
Pretty standard Haven unit, Zealot from H3 or Inquisitor from H5. Not sure how Aura of Cleansing is supposed to work. Apparently units adjacent to Abbot will be dealt reduced damage either from creatures or spells. I don’t know if it’s a proper interpretation since it seems to duplicate Legionnaires’ Shielding ability. Second ability: Ranged Retaliation may allow Abbots to win range duels. I expect No Melee Penalty (same as Zealots and Inquisitors) so Haven player doesn’t have to focus on protecting their shooters and play more open style of battle.
Champion Creatures
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SWORDMASTER
Abilities: Sweep, Indomitable
In H2 we have already seen humans as tier 7 units – Crusaders. Sweep attack will probably work similar to the same ability in Duel of Champions – Swordmaster attacks not only the targeted unit but also each adjacent to him in the attack line. I have no idea what Indomitable does but I can venture a guess: I think he will be immune to mind related effects. Frankly speaking they don’t look to me as a champion unit so I expect higher weekly growth.
CELESTIAL
Abilities: Aura of Purity, Resurrection
Since H3 I have always associated Haven with Angels so they are the proper champion unit to me. Some key characteristics such as overall high stats and steady damage will probably remain unchanged. In H6 duel format, Haven armies were overly reliant on Angels, mostly thanks to their faction ability (Guardian Angel) . I’d prefer to see the power to be more evenly divided across units in H7. Celestial’s first ability Aura of Purity, protects versus enemy effects and abilities – so I guess it will apply Absolute Purity to Celestial and each adjacent unit. It’s another ability that supports camping strategy. Second ability is standard and found in every upgraded Angel unit: Resurrection. I expect Resurrection to work like heal as well but with a weaker effect than when actually resurrecting a deceased unit.
Thoughts on the whole army
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Overall I have rather mixed feelings. The are 2 issues I'm especially worried about: abundance of melee units and camping strategy.
Too many melee units. Haven has lost their maneuverability that they usually had because of flyers. Especially in H6 maneuverability was a huge asset of Haven (Haven had Griffins and Sun Riders with special ability to turn into light and ride through obstacles). Please remember, that in H7 there will be obstacles on the battlefield so an army with so many melee units might become very clunky. If you go for a Swordmaster route, siege battles might become a nightmare. To compensate it, Swordmasters weekly growth has to be significantly stronger (than flying Celestials) which might be hard to balance. I recommend that Silverbacks get a passive ability that allows them to jump over obstacles and maybe even clamber on a castle gate.
Turtling seems like a viable strategy. With so many abilities that work with adjacent units and relatively strong shooters plus traditional healing and defensive abilities of Haven, camping in the corner seems to be the most straightforward option. Just imagine the line Justicar. Legionnaire and Angel in front of the shooters. It will be really hard to break. Of course it’s just early impression but I think they need to make sure that this won’t occur in online battles because playing as and especially against turtling player isn't fun.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted October 13, 2014 02:01 PM |
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I am fairly sure Cleave will work the same way it did in H5. If the unit kills at least 1 unit in the target stack, it attacks again post-retaliation.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted October 14, 2014 07:29 AM |
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NamelessOrder said:
First impressions of the H7 Haven Line-up
CELESTIAL
Abilities: Aura of Purity, Resurrection
Since H3 I have always associated Haven with Angels so they are the proper champion unit to me. Some key characteristics such as overall high stats and steady damage will probably remain unchanged. In H6 duel format, Haven armies were overly reliant on Angels, mostly thanks to their faction ability (Guardian Angel) . I’d prefer to see the power to be more evenly divided across units in H7. Celestial’s first ability Aura of Purity, protects versus enemy effects and abilities – so I guess it will apply Absolute Purity to Celestial and each adjacent unit. It’s another ability that supports camping strategy. Second ability is standard and found in every upgraded Angel unit: Resurrection. I expect Resurrection to work like heal as well but with a weaker effect than when actually resurrecting a deceased unit.
How do u think one will waste whole turn with angel to heal the top of a unit?
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted October 14, 2014 08:11 AM |
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natalka said:
How do u think one will waste whole turn with angel to heal the top of a unit?
I'm not sure what you are asking for exactly? How can you use your angel unit to heal and not to attack? Well, at least in heroes 6, quite often during the first Angel had no target, or to get a target they would have to move out and disrupt the defensive line. I dunno how it will work in H7, but maybe it might be better to stay with angels and heal a unit than to reach out to enemy.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted October 14, 2014 10:56 AM |
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Yes Angel either attacks or resurects. But it will be very dumb if they only heal. What will you use it on - Cuirassiers?
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted October 14, 2014 11:54 AM |
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natalka said:
Yes Angel either attacks or resurects. But it will be very dumb if they only heal. What will you use it on - Cuirassiers?
i dunno, it's too early to say. We don't know hoe resurrection works exactly. In H6 Blade of Epiphany (= Resurrection) also gave +10 ini and +30 morale which was huge and was the reason why it made no sense to wait until some creature dies but you cast it on Marksmen to win the shooters war or, if you go for blood instead of tears, you could cast it on Sun Riders, put them under Guardian Angel and give them Heroic Charge (wait, attack + cleave and then attack next turn). Another tactics was to resurrect Glories and then use them to blind an enemy unit (abusing the bug that allowed glories to blind any unit regardless of HP discrepancy).
I guess it will be an active ability once or 2 per battle.
Normally, if healing doesn't apply aditional bonuses, you want to use it on the unit with the highest defense (again: in duel format, not talking about maps when minimizing losses is more important) so from the lineup i'd expect Cuirassiers (or Angels themselves) or, if you have a good target, on your damage dealer like Marksman or Justicar but that doesn't happen that often.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted October 14, 2014 01:15 PM |
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If healing from Angels doesn`t give bonuses why use it? Unless you play with armies of 1 week growth.
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted October 15, 2014 09:29 AM |
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2 more things i'd like to see:
1. I'd be worth considering to give Marksmen an active ability "Draw a sword" that forces wait command but gives them no-melee penalty.
2. Since there will be obstacles on the battlemap i'm afraid that Cuirassiers might be actually weak since it might be quite easy to block them in a way that they cannot effectively use their charge ability. I'd like to see some mechanics (maybe even a hero ability applied to a creature) that would solve this like Sun Steed in H6.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted October 15, 2014 06:13 PM |
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What do you mean by too many melee units?
The Crossbowmen aren't going to be the only long range shooting units. The Abbots will have the long range holy sky attack that is not a spell casting ability, just like the Priests-Inquisitors-Zealots of Might and Magic Heroes V: Tribes of the East v. 3.1.
Sure these can cast basic spells that help fellow Haven units get out of a tight and unpleasant position-situation but, these holy soldiers are very good at short range shooting and, even better when it comes to close quarters(melee's attack and retaliation).
In this title, though, the player has to watch out to flanking quick charge like attacks. No matter how tough the Haven unit will be, that newest feature, will get to neutralize most, if not all, of the Haven's units abilities to properly defend themselves.
BTW: Anyone who does not like goody two shoes factions will find Haven's line-up bland and boring to the max. Just like me, that finds the evil factions bland and boring to the max. also.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 16, 2014 09:03 AM |
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NamelessOrder said:
SILVERBACK
Abilities: Unlimited Retaliation, Feral Charge
Wolf Duchy’s equivalent of a Griffin, Silverbacks has unlimited retaliation. The other ability, Feral Charge will probably work as activated ability that gives you a bonus to damage (and maybe even movement) but will lower your defense until his next turn. I hope he will have high initiative to take advantage of the Feral Charge – you use the wait command and then attack at the end the turn to move him again in the beginning of the next turn so your opponent cannot take full advantage of decreased defense. With low initiative using his ability might become too risky. Also the 2 abilities doesn’t really synergize since Unlimited Retaliation is defensive and works best in a blocker while Feral Charge is offensive.
The description on the site for Feral Charge says that the Silverback leaps onto his target from just about anywhere. To me, that sounds like the Silverback will be able to jump over obstacles towards the target. In essence, a one-time-per-use fly ability.
Also, it says it leaves the Silverback vulnerable for a period after it. People automatically assumed it means its defense will be lowered; has anyone (Marzhin?) confirmed that it works that way? For all we know, it may reduce its initiative for the subsequent turn, so more enemies can attack it before it can act again.
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