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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Walking in the street when there are sidewalks
Thread: Walking in the street when there are sidewalks This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 02, 2014 10:05 PM
Edited by fred79 at 22:07, 02 Oct 2014.

Walking in the street when there are sidewalks

I'm starting this thread, because this is the second incident that I've seen lately in the news, that originated with black people walking in the street. The incident in Ferguson, Missouri, originated from 2 black individuals walking in the street. And, there were sidewalks to walk on, on that street(judging from video shot of the incident that was released).

This new incident involved cops apparently arresting people for walking in the street, before the older woman got involved(and was subsequently tazed).

I watched the video posted in the link of the new incident, depicting what the cops were doing. I definitely think the policeman was wrong for tazing the older woman. Since the video didn't show if the people detained were walking on the side of the street, or down the middle, I cannot really have an opinion, if the cops were justified in arresting the others. As the guy in the video says(and what is easily apparent), the street they were walking on didn't have sidewalks.

Where I live, I have personally seen black people walking in the street(the kinds of streets where there are actually sidewalks for people to walk on). The latest incident was last weekend: a black man walking in the street, parallel with a sidewalk, making cars slow down and swerve around him.

I have never seen a non-black walk on a street that had sidewalks beside the street, strictly for pedestrians.

I wonder, has anyone else here noticed people walking in the street where there are sidewalks, personally? Is it only a black phenomenon?

By the way, what I am pointing out, is in no way, racist(before anyone gets THAT idea). This is what I have witnessed, personally; and what has been in the news, that ends up causing an uproar between black people and police. This is a seemingly ongoing trend, and I mean only to identify it and find out if it is black-specific.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted October 02, 2014 10:34 PM

Don't worry Fred, we don't mind you're racist.

Anyway, there have been a lot of excessive violence cases regarding the police in the US, but I'm sure it's not something isolated to the US. Stuff like applying tazar without being in danger, shooting at car tires.. or even drivers, when people won't stop, etc. stuff which in general do more to escalate the situation than contain it, which their tool is, among other things, there for in the first place.

E.g. no one should ever be arrested for walking on the street, that's a fine at most, depending on the situation.. non-compliance can be a problem, but for some reason non-compliance often leads to "YOU DARE QUESTION MY AUTHORITY!!?"-mode.

All public institutions are there for the people, that includes those who are violating the laws, they must be treated with the highest respect and decency, no matter how unpleasant they may be, but the problem seems to be more that it's a two-way thing, neither of the sides thinks the other is a "good thing".. which begs the question: "Why?".
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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 02, 2014 10:57 PM

well, to be honest, i'm beginning to understand the cops' point of view, at least as far as deliberate jaywalking goes. what i'm seeing, is not really a carelessness, but a deliberate provocation by the jaywalkers, as the cops are the people who will be the ones to stop them. the same can be said for someone walking around breaking windows, and waiting for the cops to show up. to my understanding, it is intentional, if only subconsciously.

i think that this is where the cops' outrage is coming from(regarding jaywalking issues), and subsequently, where their violence is coming from, from that standpoint. and then, when there is outrage over the cops' actions by the public, the police, in turn, get more aggressive, because the public isn't sees things from their point of view.

note: i'm only addressing the "jaywalkers vs. cops" issue in this thread. all of the other reasons for cop-on-public violence, i'm not addressing.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted October 03, 2014 12:10 AM

Perhaps, but then I'll say the cops are too sensitive. Firefighters, cops, medics, etc. have jobs where they have higher responsibility, but also enjoy more protection in return. An aggressive response from someone who's there to protect all parties in a matter of conflict are more likely to worsen the situation, not solve it.

My impression is also rather different. To me it seems like there's a social separation between cops and average population in e.g. Ferguson, hence cops can feel threatened by what in retrospect are tragicomical situations. Under such circumstances, police cannot do their work, and I think it's against the purpose of having a police force in the first place that such issues are not solved.

I'd not be surprised if in some cases the population would be better without police altogether.. we've after all already seen such cases where the law enforcement in the eyes of the public gets differentiated from what it's supposed to be, and as a result, the law enforcement's does divert from its purpose. It's not something every single member of the squad does, but it's rather that for any single incident, the impression is enforced and the police loses respect and starts to be seen as the villains, not the protectors they're supposed to be and are in by far the majority of all situations which they're called upon.. I believe.

As such, someone who deliberately seeks confrontation is obviously potentially a problem, certainly if said person does so by causing others distress in the attempt. That should be dealt with, but by appropriate means. Using a tazer or arresting because someone doesn't want to walk on the side-walk, no matter how frustrating it is, should never be the right solution.
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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 03, 2014 12:54 AM
Edited by fred79 at 04:15, 03 Oct 2014.

OhforfSake said:
Perhaps, but then I'll say the cops are too sensitive. Firefighters, cops, medics, etc. have jobs where they have higher responsibility, but also enjoy more protection in return. An aggressive response from someone who's there to protect all parties in a matter of conflict are more likely to worsen the situation, not solve it.


obviously. i have seen plenty of instances where police are paranoid to the point of insanity. this video can certainly back up that statement. every time a cop pulls someone over(i see this all the time), they always have another cop car join them(even for routine traffic stops). it's ridiculous, and definitely displays a continuing judgement made by cops, towards the general population. we've had one cop shot, months ago, in a different city, and the multiple-cops pulling-over-one-vehicle(with ONE occupant driving) kind of thing is rampant everywhere. it has been, since BEFORE the off-duty cop was shot(in the case i'm referring to).

that, on top of the militarization of the police force country-wide, isn't a very good indicator, that a semblance of peace between the police and the general population, is on the horizon. no, it seems to be worsening at a sickening rate.

but that doesn't excuse people who provoke these kinds of incidents, either. the blame lies on both sides. or all sides, if we widen our views to include everyone else in the degeneration of society.

OhforfSake said:
I'd not be surprised if in some cases the population would be better without police altogether.. we've after all already seen such cases where the law enforcement in the eyes of the public gets differentiated from what it's supposed to be, and as a result, the law enforcement's does divert from its purpose. It's not something every single member of the squad does, but it's rather that for any single incident, the impression is enforced and the police loses respect and starts to be seen as the villains, not the protectors they're supposed to be and are in by far the majority of all situations which they're called upon.. I believe.


i can't see how any mass of people can get along without law enforcement. people cannot even get along without their internet, let alone something resembling law enforcement that supposedly protects them. instead of "us vs. them" mentality between cops and civilians, you'd have "us vs. them" mentality between EVERYONE. of course, that might be fun for a week or so(heh heh heh), but once the food and water started running out, things would get pretty nasty.

i agree with the rest of the paragraph, though.

OhforfSake said:
As such, someone who deliberately seeks confrontation is obviously potentially a problem, certainly if said person does so by causing others distress in the attempt. That should be dealt with, but by appropriate means. Using a tazer or arresting because someone doesn't want to walk on the side-walk, no matter how frustrating it is, should never be the right solution.


well, not to be a dick or anything(), but i think people(read: mentally stable adults) who walk in the road when there's a perfectly good sidewalk, should be killed as soon as they are deemed stable. to prevent widespread arrogance or idiocy, before they breed. regardless of race or sex.

but i'm an exception. most people will tolerate a lot more than i would; and when they wouldn't, their reactions would most likely be more civil. keep that in mind.

(edit: had typed "cannot" where i meant to type "can")

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 03, 2014 12:58 AM

fred79 said:
I wonder, has anyone else here noticed people walking in the street where there are sidewalks, personally? Is it only a black phenomenon?


We don't have black people in Poopland and young rebellious drunks do that a lot in the night, so nope, not a black phenomenon at all.
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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 03, 2014 01:04 AM

Doomforge said:
fred79 said:
I wonder, has anyone else here noticed people walking in the street where there are sidewalks, personally? Is it only a black phenomenon?


We don't have black people in Poopland and young rebellious drunks do that a lot in the night, so nope, not a black phenomenon at all.


i didn't think so. it's just that where i live, it is ONLY a black phenomenon. which makes me question the motives for such a thing.

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 03, 2014 01:07 AM

This is a very interesting deviant behaviour. What sinister motives could someone possibly have of walking in the middle of the street? What a terrible offense. Surely society must condemn this horrific act, or else, criminalty will spiral out of control.
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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 03, 2014 01:10 AM

lol, says the politician.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted October 03, 2014 01:44 AM

To be honest, I too think it's a big issue with the militarization of the police force. Stories of tool appliance which you'd think would only happen in war. But as far as I know, a larger focus on this issue is taking place, and I'm certain soon there it'll be a political agenda that the police to be more like the power rangers.. to only use appropriate force as it is necessary.. that the show itself translated into meaning "we'll never attack the bad guys, but whenever the bad guys attack us, we'll destroy them even if they give up", was a bit sad, in my opinion.

Regarding a lawless society, one would think it'd devolve back into the historical family/clan fights, where two groups can never settle their disputes and everyone is in danger all the time, but that's just not reality all the time. I'd even guess it's seldom reality. In Georgia, ~10 years ago, they had ~3 months with no police force, as far as I know, and it went fine. The crime rate even deteriorated, as the reason for getting rid of the cops were that they were corrupt, but they also turned out to be a big player in escalating crimes, rather than preventing it. Of course this is easy to say, since I've no clue how crime rates are measured, getting rid of cops could by itself skewer the accuracy of the measurement.. but I mention it just to show that it has happened, and society did not break down.

Anyway Fred, I'm sorry I'm so lousy at this, I mean if I were a proper OSM debater, we ought to be at each other throats by now, repeating the same stuff over and over again and generally become more and more rude in the process. Yet I find it difficult to disagree with your general points and I guess I'm just not worthy to discuss with you.

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 03, 2014 02:03 AM

@ ohfor: regarding what happened in Georgia(if you're referring to Hurricane Katrina, which i believe you are), there was all kinds of rampant criminality, if i remember right. rapes, murders, etc. not like anything changed because of the hurricane, really.

lol, i'm not looking for an argument, i never am. just answers, by country, by perspective. certain opinions are bound to conflict mine, because i don't think i need any reason to tolerate stupidity. especially people who think i should have to drive around because they think they are either somehow better than everyone else, or that want to provoke something from whoever.

like marilyn manson wrote, "there's no time to discriminate; hate every mother****er that's in your way".

and, before anyone think i drove around the guy last weekend; i didn't. i drove like i normally would in the lane, and called him a ****ing moron as loud as i could as i passed him. i would have stopped, got out of my car, and shoved him onto the sidewalk(and maybe kicked him in the face a couple of times), but there were cars behind me, and i didn't want to cause an accident by slamming on my brakes. because i'm considerate.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted October 03, 2014 02:14 AM

I didn't realize from your previous posts you were personally involved in the incident. That changes it a lot, because now it becomes more emotional, well that'd at least be the case for me. It's odd how when distant it can be so much easier to be more forgiving for the other party, but when part of it, the emotional trauma can out weight ones set of values, again that's at least my experience.

Of course they shouldn't be a general annoyance towards daily commute, roads are generally for cars.. of course when there are no side-walks, pedestrians are expected to keep to the side of the road and the cars are expected to pass the pedestrians. I myself have been in a state of no respect for others day to day life, where I wouldn't have cared if I blocked the road for someone.. but I don't think it's far that anyone has to deal with these problems when they're not actually asking for it, i.e. seeking them themselves. But having been at both ends of said spectrum, I can say that I didn't consider my fellow man's situation, I was completely self absorbed in being able to do "whatever", and not letting anyone tell me otherwise.

But again, it's not a situation which should warrant arresting or tasering, which, please forgive me if I'm wrong, I understand you agree with? It's people.. intolerant people.. testing out limits, without regard for who they may hurt, and it should of course never happen. I blame their upbringing.. not their parents, but the whole system.

But this is generalizing on very little information, I could also say that perhaps you're right and they do deserve to be.. well you described it yourself, but it's always been my ideal that coercion is always wrong.

Nah, the Georgia incident is about the country, not the state, and nothing to do with any Hurricane.
Here's the first link that popped up in google: http://englishrussia.com/2011/08/20/georgian-police-before-and-after-reform/

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 03, 2014 02:55 AM

OhforfSake said:
1. I didn't realize from your previous posts you were personally involved in the incident.

2. of course when there are no side-walks, pedestrians are expected to keep to the side of the road and the cars are expected to pass the pedestrians.

3. But again, it's not a situation which should warrant arresting or tasering, which, please forgive me if I'm wrong, I understand you agree with? It's people.. intolerant people.. testing out limits, without regard for who they may hurt, and it should of course never happen. I blame their upbringing.. not their parents, but the whole system.

4. Nah, the Georgia incident is about the country, not the state, and nothing to do with any Hurricane.
Here's the first link that popped up in google: http://englishrussia.com/2011/08/20/georgian-police-before-and-after-reform/


1. i was involved in something that is under the topic of discussion, but not the incidents i linked to. it wasn't an incident with me, just a passing annoyance. it might have been an incident after i left; i don't think so, though, as it wasn't in the news.

2. you'll get no argument from me there. in my own experience with cars + roads + walking(), i was once hit by a drunk driver while walking in the rain-gutter of a road that didn't have sidewalks, in a residential neighborhood. what didn't happen lawfully regarding the incident, happened by "karma" instead. he totalled his car later that month. of course, being a drunk probably upped his chances of such an event. for a non-idiot, hitting someone would have been a wake-up call. for him, it wasn't.

3. no, i don't agree that the older woman should have been tazed, you got that right. she was only trying to find out what the others were being arrested for(which is another circumstance entirely). she shouldn't have gotten involved, but she shouldn't have been tazed, either, as she wasn't a threat to the cop. he let his emotions get the better of him, and an enforcer of law, who's job is to protect innocent people, should be able to keep a level head in a potentially hostile situation. his action didn't prevent any hostility, but only increased the chances that it could happen, with his hostile act. a man wearing a badge, who supposedly represents law and order for the populace, should never do that.

and, i agree that the system has a large amount of influence on people, certainly. but even with all that influence, a person SHOULD be able to come to their own conclusions, and act responsibly, and not make things worse for people who don't necessarily deserve it.

4. that link certainly paints a pretty picture of Georgian police. but i don't believe it(i just think it's propaganda). it sure would be ideal, though.

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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted October 03, 2014 03:26 AM

He was black.

/end thread.

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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 03, 2014 04:00 AM

kayna said:
He was black.

/end thread.



i think you can do better than this.

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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted October 03, 2014 05:38 AM
Edited by kayna at 05:40, 03 Oct 2014.

Recap :

A young black guy that likes to rap but never got in any real trouble decided to punk some cigarettes cuz you can't really be a real rapper without doing some thug stuff yourself. Then, instead of laying low, he walked right in the streets waving his crossed fingers and doing some crisp dance cuz he was the bad ass of the world at that moment, with his pack of cigs.

Then the white cop came along. Some cheap struggle happened ( I dont know the details like who started it but considering it was through the window of a car and he had no weapons surely the cop wasn't really harmed ). The cop saw ( finally! ) an opportunity to shot someone to death and get away with it, and did so cuz he had some frustrations to unload. Whether those frustrations are based on racism or something else, for some it makes a difference, for others it doesn't. After all, according to the law, if you kill someone in the heat of the moment, it's not out of "cold blood", but if enough time passes on, it is, and that can make a big difference when you end up in front of the judge.

That s why you re better off ruminating that grudge and blow off at the slightest provocation-excuse-opportunity. All the cops knows that very well.

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fred79
fred79


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Undefeatable Hero
posted October 03, 2014 07:03 AM

@ kayna: what incident exactly, are you referring to?

as for cops killing someone to blow off steam... i would say i disagree. killing someone is a pretty extreme way to blow off steam, not to mention, everyone has a camera, and they tend to focus it on cops when they stop people; just in case.

i wouldn't see that as a viable solution to what ails them, as a cop.


have YOU ever seen people walking in the road where there are sidewalks, kayna?

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kipshasz
kipshasz


Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
posted October 03, 2014 08:46 AM

well, fred, what do you expect, you live in an economical dictatorship/police state, where the uniformed pigs can do whatever the bleep they want.

what about the time not a while ago, when some basterds shot an unarmed black kid?

and I thought the cucumbers of my country were stupid and corrupt with power.
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fred79
fred79


Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 03, 2014 08:57 AM

kipshasz said:
what about the time not a while ago, when some basterds shot an unarmed black kid?


this has happened much more than once(among other things). what i'm trying to do with this thread, is see if there is a correlation between black people in the u.s., jaywalking when a sidewalk is readily available, and hostile police reactions regarding those incidents. i'm just trying to see what ties together, and i'm specifically addressing jaywalking(in the presence of a sidewalk) ONLY, here.

black people jaywalking when there is a perfectly good sidewalk hasn't been ruled out of the equation yet, as race-specific(in the states, at least).

which means the other two will still be up, as well.

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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted October 03, 2014 04:06 PM

No, nobody walks in the streets in Canada. Nobody. We're all perfectly repressed into submission in all aspects of life. Rarely do something bad happen here, so when it does happen, everyone remembers it, meaning you can be singled out rather easily and sometimes for life after 1 mistake. Canada is a pretty unforgiving place.

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