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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Tavern and power of core creatures
Thread: Tavern and power of core creatures
natalka
natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted October 03, 2014 08:07 AM
Edited by natalka at 08:11, 03 Oct 2014.

Tavern and power of core creatures

We should include in the next Q&A 2 things

1) Tavern from the old heroes games should return where you can choose from 2 random heroes one of which is native and only those first 2 heroes had army. All other heroes you buy should have 1 skeleton etc.
Also the cost of heroes should be fixed or slight increasing so we can play with more heroes from start. That is a core heroes mechanic.

2) The other thing is the power of cores.
Do you like to have big population of cores which are weak and to rely on numbers or to have small growth and to rely on their hp.

For example in h3 the growth of core units is double that of h6.

I prefer h3 style.

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Moriak71
Moriak71


Hired Hero
posted October 03, 2014 10:10 AM

Agree on both points.
I liked the setup of H3 on this.

+1

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted October 03, 2014 11:31 AM

Core creatures must have high growth and low power. I know that some people cry "it's boring to have sucky core creatures" but problem is, if core creatures don't suck, there's no incentive to build higher level creatures. H6 vanilla was a class example of this, you could do very well with armies consisting almost solely of core creatures.
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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted October 03, 2014 11:41 AM

alcibiades said:
Core creatures must have high growth and low power. I know that some people cry "it's boring to have sucky core creatures" but problem is, if core creatures don't suck, there's no incentive to build higher level creatures. H6 vanilla was a class example of this, you could do very well with armies consisting almost solely of core creatures.


This wasn't a problem of Core's power, but of the acumulated growth thanks to CP/TC...

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted October 03, 2014 12:16 PM

Core units should definetly have less impact in the game than compared to H6. I hope UbiLimbic learnt the lesson.

And bring Champions that inspire respect, please!
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted October 03, 2014 12:18 PM

Dave_Jame said:
This wasn't a problem of Core's power, but of the acumulated growth thanks to CP/TC...

This certainly made an impact also, but I do still stand by my point that cores were too powerful (and too close to elites) in H6. If you think back to previous games, even if you had two or three towns of the same kind, you still wanted to upgrade into higher tiers fairly quickly.
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Pawek_13
Pawek_13


Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
posted October 03, 2014 12:20 PM

Storm-Giant said:
And bring Champions that inspire respect, please!

I am currently replaying Heroes 5 and I love the amount of power that Level 7 creatures have. Please, let Champions in Heroes 7 shine as brightly as the Level 7 creatures used to do.
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Stormcaller
Stormcaller


Famous Hero
posted October 03, 2014 12:24 PM

I never liked this new core-elite-champion thingy that was introduced in H6.

I wish it went back to the old tier 1 to tier 7 thingy like in Heroes V.....

In my opinion, it made core units too strong and champion units too weak.

Can't express how underwhelming Pit lords felt, even with boundless hate or whatever it was called ability.


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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted October 03, 2014 12:24 PM

I like the idea that low level units are more powerful pr. growth than higher level units, but higher level units are better for cleaning the map, because they're easier to keep alive.

E.g. if you only have to do one battle and you can choose between 1000 peasants or 1 dragon, 1000 peasants would be the better choice, but if you've to do several battles in a row, the unit count of the peasants would drop for each battle, making your army weaker, while alternatively you'd always have 1 dragon at your disposal.

Of course this is ignoring the tactical elements of speed and spells, which can also make lower level units which are typically slower and less resistant a worse choice.

This makes high level units the favorite choice, but allows for a position for low level units where they're able to be the better choice as well.

With the older heroes games, low level units would be more powerful pr. cost, but since there was usually plenty of gold it made low level units more or less useless.. especially when considering the high cost of a slow army when having low level units in it, the only exception would be the skeleton, because it wasn't limited to its growth rate.
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RMZ1989
RMZ1989


Supreme Hero
posted October 03, 2014 12:40 PM

alcibiades said:
Core creatures must have high growth and low power. I know that some people cry "it's boring to have sucky core creatures" but problem is, if core creatures don't suck, there's no incentive to build higher level creatures. H6 vanilla was a class example of this, you could do very well with armies consisting almost solely of core creatures.

Exactly what Dave said, there aren't any problems with cores being as strong as in H6, problem was with the fact that you could transform creature dwellings, towns and forts into those of your own faction, and since you never had enough resources to develop elite and/or champion units in those towns, you would naturally only build cores. And all that results into much much higher core numbers than they should be compared to elites and champions and that is the only reason why they felt so powerful.

There would be the same problem in H5 too if you had the same options. No matter how weak first few creatures are, they would feel too strong if you had ~700-1000 of them at the time you have 5-15 of tier 7 units.
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natalka
natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted October 03, 2014 12:57 PM

You miss one of the most dumb things that all heroes in tavern had army and when your main hero gained levels all heroes you buy had their army increased. If I buy 3 heroes with Vestals week 1 which is easy if u open chests for money then I can creep everything easily.

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RMZ1989
RMZ1989


Supreme Hero
posted October 03, 2014 01:05 PM

natalka said:
You miss one of the most dumb things that all heroes in tavern had army and when your main hero gained levels all heroes you buy had their army increased. If I buy 3 heroes with Vestals week 1 which is easy if u open chests for money then I can creep everything easily.

That is completely another problem of H6 that should be brought back to H5 level.

I don't see the reason of increasing creatures for new heroes if you level up your main hero.
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natalka
natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted October 03, 2014 01:08 PM

And why tell me why all heroes have army? It is only offset by the gold cost but is very difficult to balance for mapmakers.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted October 03, 2014 01:12 PM

Which brings back another question :

- Will we have worthy secondary heroes again ?
Having multiple heroes is much more entertaining IMO than one superman teleporting lol

Also regarding tier system I fully agree with Alcibiades.
alcibiades said:

Core creatures must have high growth and low power.


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jeremiahemo
jeremiahemo


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
posted October 03, 2014 02:29 PM

how taverns should be implemented is that the Heroes you choose from should only be aligned with the city's race. And it should be different for every city.

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted October 03, 2014 02:49 PM

RMZ1989 said:
alcibiades said:
Core creatures must have high growth and low power. I know that some people cry "it's boring to have sucky core creatures" but problem is, if core creatures don't suck, there's no incentive to build higher level creatures. H6 vanilla was a class example of this, you could do very well with armies consisting almost solely of core creatures.

Exactly what Dave said, there aren't any problems with cores being as strong as in H6, problem was with the fact that you could transform creature dwellings, towns and forts into those of your own faction, and since you never had enough resources to develop elite and/or champion units in those towns, you would naturally only build cores. And all that results into much much higher core numbers than they should be compared to elites and champions and that is the only reason why they felt so powerful.

There would be the same problem in H5 too if you had the same options. No matter how weak first few creatures are, they would feel too strong if you had ~700-1000 of them at the time you have 5-15 of tier 7 units.


Plus add the nice feature of Ressurective healing that made the fact of not loosing creatures not a matter of skill but a necessarily. The fact that you almost did not loose units made cores much strunger. And if I am correct none of these features are in H7.

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natalka
natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted October 06, 2014 07:22 AM
Edited by natalka at 07:30, 06 Oct 2014.

jeremiahemo said:
how taverns should be implemented is that the Heroes you choose from should only be aligned with the city's race. And it should be different for every city.


I disagree. Where should I get my fodder from then?

In h5 we had regeneration which is nearly the same as h6 healing units+regeneration IF you tweak the tavern
Buying several heroes with Sisters->Vestals for some gold was the stupidest thing ever.

In my playtesting of my map when I finally made the decision to tweak the tavern Haven immediately started to feel a lot difficult to play.You had to play very carefully in order not to lose more units than the 2 heals from 14 Vestals could manage. Same was true for Necropolis and Sanctuary.

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