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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Horn of the Abyss Proposals/Wishlists
Thread: Horn of the Abyss Proposals/Wishlists This thread is 24 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 10 ... 20 21 22 23 24 · «PREV / NEXT»
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted January 29, 2017 09:17 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 21:41, 29 Jan 2017.

Baronus said:
I thought about 10 skill levels each 10% to ability. Eg. 10lvl logistic bonus 100% movement. 28 skills x 10 lvl = 280 lvls. Hero can learn 10 x 8 = 80 lvls.

And with a bit of bad luck you achive level 75 without full expertize of the skill hero has specialty on? I don't like the idea.

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted January 29, 2017 10:49 PM

Impossible. Hero with specialty eg. logistics has so big probability to get logistcs that alwas first it will be. Only if you dont want on 75 you dont take it. Theres no specialist without big probabilty to get his skill. Eg. necromancy in castle. It must be a lot of levels if skilling wolud be interesting. You must change because is imposiible to get all. And thats good. Bad is now because you get all skills alwas in big map. Only in small maps you cant get all.
I dont tell adding new skills. I know its very hard in original code. I told about more levels to 28 basic skills. x10. It means old 8 skills give 80 lvls. Or mamybe it will be easiest. Each level partition on 3 sublevels 8 x 3 x 3 = 72 lvls. Building hero is worst thing in Heroes 1-3. Only 3 lvls. Only 28 skils. We change only one from 2 skills, only secondary and only to 22. 2 on start. Compare with number of spells each 5 lvls. It give about 500!!! lvls or more.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted January 30, 2017 12:58 AM

What you guys are discussing is a totally different game from what H3 ever intended to be. The high levels you're describing have never been in the scope of the original developers and hence, the game is (far) from optimized for such play. Balancing it out properly across such a huge range of levels and primary stats is a nightmare.
____________
The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted January 30, 2017 08:22 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 09:11, 30 Jan 2017.

Maurice said:
Balancing it out properly across such a huge range of levels and primary stats is a nightmare.
I guess I was missunderstood... I never talked about increasing the number of prims (since is the difference between the attack of one and the deffense of the other that matters and that caps at 60 and so there is absolutly no difference between 70/10 and 255/10, why bother?). The thing is: if the map I'm making works as I want it, you will get dozens of main-to-main battles per match and I'm not sure I can (or want) to change main after 10 months because he is going to get negative prims, so I wanted a bigger buffer or a way to trade their place or to sell them.
Also for secs all I asked for is a bigger range, maybe a panel with ten or twelve and the MoT, so you can correct building mistakes (or trade Crag's Offense for Estates, since he was promoted to Town Keeper).
I agree with a more 'traditional' aproach but in my map all the hundreds of Mansions and Utopias in six closed areas can be taken in the first 2 months and one needs an eternity to finnish. So, since banks don't respawn, you fight the first few guys of each other faction with their backpacks full and after that, for months, they have to attack completly 'naked' cause player got every single artifact they took from one hundred banks or more. So, respawn would be good...

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted January 30, 2017 09:32 AM

If HotA dont want change gameplay for what they give new creature abilities never planned? For what they give xxl maps? Never planned? New city is never planned too. And gameplay is changed by new city.  Skilling system in Heroes III was always the worst thing in heroes. Only 28 skills only 3 levels. Only 6 you can get. Only if AI gives it you. A lot of weak skills you must take because choice is only between two. MORE LEVELS IS THE SAME GAMEPLAY LIKE ALWAS! 3 levels or 10 levels IS NO CHANGE IN GAME IDEA! But game is more, more, more interesting if you must think what to get because you never get all.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted January 30, 2017 09:42 AM
Edited by Maurice at 09:44, 30 Jan 2017.

bloodsucker said:
... but in my map all the hundreds of Mansions and Utopias in six closed areas can be taken in the first 2 months and one needs an eternity to finnish. So, since banks don't respawn, you fight the first few guys of each other faction with their backpacks full and after that, for months, they have to attack completly 'naked' cause player got every single artifact they took from one hundred banks or more. So, respawn would be good...


But this is more or less what I meant . The game was never meant to be played in quite this way. Hundreds of Mansions and Utopia's? Loaded backpacks, full with Artifacts? Game balance never considered these cases (not in the least because of the relative low number of unique Artifacts with respect to the amount you're handing out and the presence of combination Artifacts).

HotA tries to stick relatively close to the original formula, which the above deviates from rather sharply. While I wish you all the fun in the world with the way you're designing your map, I don't think it's within the scope of the HotA team to remedy the extreme boundary conditions you're running into.

Baronus said:
MORE LEVELS IS THE SAME GAMEPLAY LIKE ALWAS! 3 levels or 10 levels IS NO CHANGE IN GAME IDEA! But game is more, more, more interesting if you must think what to get because you never get all.


Actually it isn't, because leveling speed is balanced with the rate at which you gain skills. Either you have to reduce individual skill levels (which makes the game harder as (neutral) creature stacks grow in power), or you overpower the Hero who invests in just a few skills initially.
____________
The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted January 30, 2017 10:35 AM
Edited by Baronus at 10:37, 30 Jan 2017.

Skill system is not ballanced because in xl maps you can learn all skills max and its end hero skilling. In campaign you learn all in 3rd map. From 3 to 8 and more maps are in fact without hero skilling. Skilling is not ballanced. To ballance it must be more levels.
Gameplay hard? Now archery 3 gives 50% bonus. I suggest 30%. 130 damgaes vs 150 dmg. Little change. Little hardest will be good because neutrals are to easy with big skills and they run. In battles between heroes ballance is the same because both have the same chances and the same skill systems.

If you invest only in one skill you cant use another. All is ballanced. And I want to choice. 3 skils x 8 or 8 skills x 3! THATS IT! I WANT IT ALL THE TIME! REALY HERO BUILDING ROAD NOT ONLY ICON CLICKING!
Now we have maps XL 180, 216, 252.
XL252 map is like 49!!! S36 maps! Now old weak skilling is very weak. First thing to change.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 30, 2017 11:32 AM

Problem is that you reach expert in 8 skills fast and after that there is'nt really any hero develoment, all you get is a random stat.
There are several ways this could be improved: You could add 2 extra skill slots, that would amount to 6 extra levels before hero is maxed, there could be a master and grand master level to all skills, if 8 skills that would give 16 extra levels for developement, 20 if 10 skills. Another way would be to increase the xp it takes to level up, then progress would be slower and in some maps it might not even be possible to get expert in all skills.
I think I would prefer to have 10 skills, but if that would make battles vs neutrals too easy, maybe their stacks could be increased instead...

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted January 30, 2017 11:48 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 12:37, 30 Jan 2017.

Maurice said:
I don't think it's within the scope of the HotA team to remedy the extreme boundary conditions you're running into.

It doesn't matter if utopias are 3 or 300, if AI players can take them all before metting human player the first time they will still fight all battles after that without a single artifact.
The problem is not with the number of banks, in any random Huge map you will fill your backpack many times. The difference is: in a random map you will get one (maybe two) hard battles per faction, when the way I'm building this map they are ready for another challeging fight in two or three weeks and you can't reach any of them in such a short time. So the problem with not respawning banks. Because they have the troops, they have heroes with extra prims but they can't match a guy equipped with the Angelic Alliance when they don't have a single artifact, this happens in any random map when you are finnishing but here will happen much before middle game.
I can accept this situation is extreme, yet I don't see a problem with respawning banks in any situation and I can name several where not respawning is a problem.
 

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avatar
avatar


Famous Hero
posted January 30, 2017 01:12 PM

I think it will be interesting to introduce new "skills" that would lauch about 28 level. I think something in shape runes in Diablo 2 or paragons from Diablo3. For example - when you reached 28th level you have opportunity to choose various runes syllables. Every each level you choose syllable and you have possibility to combine unique rune word. Longest word means better boosts. Boosts would be not 'world shattering' only small boost to statistics, skills or specialization (for example +6 attack/defence to specialisation creatures). Of course rune boost will be permament. In short - after 30 lvl new skills tree would start.    
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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted January 30, 2017 02:23 PM

Your system is interesting but too complicated to do. If its problem add new skill, what a big problem is add new system! And HotA dont want change gameplay a lot. It can be Era only. New skills and new system are welcome but hard to do.
Adding next skills to hero 8 skills without new levels is bad. How many skills you must add to gain high level? 28 x 3 = 84. All skills to each hero? No difference. Only way without changing gameplay is more levels. Its the same, only longest skilling. And relative easy. No new system, no new skills, no code rewriting.
Empty skill leveling past 20 lvl is realy weak. Big hole in game.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted January 31, 2017 11:49 AM

Just noticed Cannon is the only war-machine that doesn't cost 10 of gold for each point of health. I don't want to be mean but just to keep the tradition how about giving it the 500 health?

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted January 31, 2017 01:10 PM
Edited by Baronus at 13:18, 31 Jan 2017.

All machines has to small hp. But it can be modded by us. Skilling is hardest thing.
I thought about machines hp alghorithm similiar to ballista damage calculation.
Hp ballista = 50hp * hero deffence + 100
1 def = 50 * 1 + 100 = 150 hp
100 def = 50 * 100 + 100 = 5100 hp
Very good system.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted January 31, 2017 02:10 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 12:31, 02 Feb 2017.

This is minimal and would probably require a lot of work but I could use a quest guard or seer's hut asking for a spell scroll of a specific spell (in this case DD). Could also use events taking artifacts (if they allow for scrolls of a specific spell) or making hero forget a spell.
Also, it would be nice to have more snowcoverd objects, namelly Tower dwellings, all powerups and banks.

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted February 02, 2017 02:35 PM

Baronus said:
All machines has to small hp. But it can be modded by us. Skilling is hardest thing.
I thought about machines hp alghorithm similiar to ballista damage calculation.
Hp ballista = 50hp * hero deffence + 100
1 def = 50 * 1 + 100 = 150 hp
100 def = 50 * 100 + 100 = 5100 hp
Very good system.


Probably everyone thinks that war machines don't escalate well. I was thinking that, for damage, you could consider the size in numbers of your own troops, in addition to considering Defense for its HP, taking into consideration Tier level for exponential values, perhaps, because although damage is affected by ATT, as it seems, it still becomes rather weak, even with much more HP. Although paying a bit of attention not to make the war machine a war terror.

The idea is to make war machine feels like it grows in numbers spread about the battlefield as more units gather.


____________

Heroes-based proposal thread On hold, while I'm writing my book. =)

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted February 02, 2017 04:04 PM

Growth must be in health p. becasue unit growth is in hp not in stats. Stats are the same all the game.
Worst thing is that machines in end of games has still 75 to 250 hp. Its absurdally if we have 25-30 angels with 7500 hp and tent 75... So I thought about new system similiar to ballista damages.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted February 02, 2017 05:02 PM

Although I realise it's probably impossible to change in the code, it would be best if War Machines were a special type of unit. You can increase the stack size, by adding more, just like regular troops. What's special is that they have a guaranteed slot on the Hero's paperdoll that can only be used for them, all factions get them and they're placed outside the battlefield.

That way, a player can replenish and strengthen the War Machines naturally.
____________
The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted February 02, 2017 05:34 PM

First Aid Tent would still have to work in a different way, given that it simply heals the first damaged unit of a stack and doesn't resurrect. Ammo cart would basically have better HP? Given their effect is infinite (which I never found very logical or attractive).

The way I would re-design First Aid Tent, if possible, was making it a sort of preemptive-working unit: you choose a living unit at the start of the round to be protected with first aid services. The first damage source on that unit would be denied by a certain %. By Maurice's proposition, % would rise as number of tents were higher. It would have a different approach when it's about a Heroes skill and specialization in addition to the default function, for example, it could have a fixed chance, let's say 1, 2, 3% (basic, advanced, expert), chance to avoid sudden death of killed units of the guarded chosen stack (proc would consider each unit killed. If damage could kill 20, proc would consider % for each one. 1 HP is the limit to leave the last surviving stack). Hero specialization would add 2% to skill levels %.

At my Heroes proposal, I'm using a similar approach.
____________

Heroes-based proposal thread On hold, while I'm writing my book. =)

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted February 02, 2017 06:03 PM

Maurice said:
Although I realise it's probably impossible to change in the code, it would be best if War Machines were a special type of unit. You can increase the stack size, by adding more, just like regular troops...
That way, a player can replenish and strengthen the War Machines naturally.
Would they have a weekly growth too? Cause if not you could increase the stack infinitely, as long as you had the money.
And my proposals fall out of HotA scope? Please.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted February 02, 2017 07:30 PM

bloodsucker said:
Would they have a weekly growth too? Cause if not you could increase the stack infinitely, as long as you had the money.
And my proposals fall out of HotA scope? Please.


Hmm, yeah ... I was at work and had only half an eye on the site when I made that reply; didn't see it was the HotA topic. You're right, this idea isn't something for HotA, but rather a Heroes redesign .

But aside from that, to answer your first question: The Hero would need to buy them in a Town, but the maximum he can actually field is determined by the size of the army he fields. Even if the Hero can carry more, he can only field the amount he is allowed to based on the size of his army.

I would redesign the First Aid Tent to increase the odds of units perished in battle to actually be saved from the brink of death at the end of combat. That's basically what field medics did, once armies started to deploy them. Soldiers who would otherwise have died, were carried to a field hospital and had surgery performed on them, enabling them to live. Only applies to the victor of a battle. Survival rate depends on the number of First Aid Tents present (the more, the higher the chance), as well as the number of slain units (the more, the less chance each individual unit receives healing in time and actually survive instead of really dieing).
____________
The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

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