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| Thread: Magic Resistance or Protection? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV |
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 22, 2015 12:19 AM |
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Well, if it were a primary, it would be more like Luck and Morale that don't increase on level up, as opposed to Attack, Defense, Spellpower and Knowledge. And as such, I don't see anything bad with it. Problem is, do you want to emphasize Resistance / Protection to such a level or is that going a bit too far?
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 23, 2015 12:05 PM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 26 Sep 2015. |
Edited by Maurice at 12:12, 23 Sep 2015.
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One thing that has irked me about Magic Resistance in most Heroes games was that it was indiscriminate. I.e., a unit could resist a Fire Ball with equal odds as resisting a Lightning Bolt. There are other games out there that use damage models based on differentiation with damage source and something like that could also be helpful in Heroes 7, where many creatures feel identical. Sure, you had units like the Efreet in Heroes 3 who was immune to Fire or spells that gave units partial protection, but those were relatively far and few in between and in the case of spells were directly competing with (more) useful spells to cast.
Note that I would rather reorganize the whole Might / Magic skill system more drastically, but the proposal below is to the current game design.
Generally: differentiate resistances
With 7 Magic Schools, it makes sense to introduce resistances or weaknesses to each of those 7 - which means you will end up with 7 resistance parameters. This may seem like a lot, but a resistance parameter that is at 0% doesn't need to be shown on the UI. However, some design effort should be made to show it in an insightful manner. I will not go into detail there and assume that it can be presented in such a manner.
The basics: creatures dealing elemental damage
The basic premise is to broaden the usefulness of these resistances, by also allowing creatures to deal (partial) elemental damage, where applicable. For instance, Chaplains and Abbots deal a fair part of their damage as Light damage, Ebon Spiders would deal part of their damage as Might damage (Bite) as well as Earth damage (Poison) and a Lich's attack would be considered Dark damage for the most part. A Fire Elemental's Fire Ball would fall partially under standard Might damage (physical projectile impact) and partial Fire damage. Of course, among "creatures" I also count War Machines.
With different resistances against the 7 Magic schools across different creatures, the actual damage also varies depending on which creature attacks which. This opens up the possibility for a better rock-paper-scissors system, where a unit can be mediocre at best against some units (or perhaps even ineffective!), while it is the key to victory against others. Note that resistance is partial, it reduces the effectiveness and damage from a source against which that resistance works. For instance, a unit with 50% Fire resistance will resist half of the damage of a Fire Ball. Pure immunity would then become a special creature ability, like for Black Dragons.
Adding the Hero to the mix
Traditionally, resistances were only needed against Magic spells, since creatures didn't deal elemental damage. With the above proposal, the aspect of creatures is added. But the role of the Hero can also be expanded. Besides the obvious spells of the corresponding Magic schools, Magic School Mastery itself should effect the odds of enemy resistance to the specific element of the School in question.
Two Mages with same Spellpower, but different School Masteries, should not be able to cast a Fire Ball or Lightning Bolt with same efficiency and power as the other. The higher the Mastery within a school, the harder it becomes to resist a spell of that type, cast by that Hero, allowing for spell penetration. The effective resistance a creature has against a particular Spell is therefore the sum of its own resistance coupled to the Spell penetration as a result of the Hero's School Mastery. This could even lead to an effective weakness, where a Spell does even more damage than its base value, or make creatures that are otherwise immune at least partially vulnerable.
Adding the Hero, part two
Aside from the Hero's Spell School Mastery and the effect it has on how well Spells manage to penetrate enemy units, a secondary effect can be added to offset the advantage of Might Heroes, in the form of enhanced damage or additional abilities by troops under the Hero's command.
This could come either in the form of Perks or as automatic boosts on acquiring a certain Mastery level (and as such, this concept is tied in with a (re)balancing of the whole Skillwheel concept), giving units additional benefits over that of identical units under the banner of another Hero.
A creature like the Abbott would do more Fire damage when led by a Hero who is proficient in Fire Magic, just as an Ebon Spider would do more damage when led by a Hero who is proficient in Earth Magic. But on top of that, Magic School Mastery levels could also add specific effects. Creativity is the limit, but stuff like this would fall under that design:
Fire Magic: Torches and Pitchforks
All creatures under the Hero's control deal an extra 20% of their Might damage as Fire Damage.
Water Magic: Touch of the Frost Queen
All ranged attacks made by creatures under the Hero's control generate an icy patch beneath their target. Units on those tiles or passing over them have their movement reduced. Remains for 3 turns.
Air Magic: Winds of War
All creatures under the Hero's command have +1 movement speed. All enemy creatures suffer -1 movement speed.
Air Magic: Sparky!
All melee attacks made by creatures under the Hero's control have a chance to deal an additional X damage against their target as Air damage. All enemy creatures adjacent to the target also receive this damage.
Light Magic: The Light of Day
Increases the resistance against Dark Magic for all creatures under the Hero's command by another 20%.
Since Might Heroes are usually not well-versed in Magic Schools, their troops will not be boosted in quite a similar fashion, really setting Might Heroes apart from Magic Heroes.
Concluding note
I already mentioned that adding elemental damage to creatures while also giving each creature elemental resistances specific against each of the 7 Magic types gives some powerful tools to differentiate creatures among eachother. Care should be taken not to polarise the damage, that creatures deal, too much: dealing only a single type of damage puts creatures in a niche - but if used sparingly, this can actually be a forte. By adding multiple damage types you can really fine tune the effectivity of units among eachother.
Furthermore, this very effect can be a good incentive to introduce alternate upgrades. For instance, considering an alternate upgrade to the Chaplain might be a Zealot. Zealots would lean (much) more on Fire damage than Abbotts, whose primary focus would be on Light magic. This will allow factions to adapt itself to the external variables, like the factions they're facing off against, or the strengths and weaknesses of their alies.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 26, 2015 07:05 PM |
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I don't see the separation of magic resistance as terribly important tbh. So far all the units that are protected against a specific element have x element protection, like fire elementals. They are made of fire, why would they have a chance to resist? Protection/immunity fits better in such a case.
Regarding unit damage, H7 already uses a similar system. Spiders do deal might damage with poison being dark damage. Liches do deal dark damage. Etc. What it avoids is mixed damage which.. is irrelevant given the game's mechanics. Where it would make a difference is in H6 where magic heroes could boost the damage of magical units. But in H6 might heroes lost their main appeal as magic heroes could more than match their crazy damage.
Secondly, it would require a more or less similar amount of magical units in the lineups or else.. we get H6 balance. Barbarians >>> shamans because only dreamreavers have magic damage. Also upg cyclopes but whatever. Then there was sanctuary that had 3 magical units. But serious imbalances aside that require a good balancing sense(that ubi lacks) and a fixed amount of magic units(artificial limits suck), a magic hero that can annihilate might armies with magical unit attacks is bs. Most might units have a low magic resistance while most magic units have a low might resistance so essentially one has a weakness against the other. First attack is even more important and I don't see how that is a good thing.
Higher mastery spell penetration is a fine idea but they already typically increase effectiveness so it's almost the same thing. Secondary effects would be most welcome. H5, H6 and even H7 have a number of interesting effects but they have not been used as a source of differentiation between classes.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 26, 2015 10:20 PM |
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Elvin said:
What it avoids is mixed damage which.. is irrelevant given the game's mechanics.
But we're exactly trying to change the game's mechanics to make it more interesting. Make Magic play a role even for creatures.
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But serious imbalances aside that require a good balancing sense(that ubi lacks) and a fixed amount of magic units(artificial limits suck)
A) The lack of balancing sense on Ubi's side shouldn't be detrimental to making suggestions for improvements (otherwise, you're throwing in the towel before you even begin!);
B) With composite damage, you don't need as many magic units. For instance, the Spiders you mentioned aren't magic units, yet they deal Earth damage;
Quote:
a magic hero that can annihilate might armies with magical unit attacks is bs. Most might units have a low magic resistance while most magic units have a low might resistance so essentially one has a weakness against the other. First attack is even more important and I don't see how that is a good thing.
Most of the first is up for balancing. Given battlefields where you don't clash right away on the first turn (as was often the case in H5) but also don't have to charge forever to reach the enemy (as seems to be the case with H7 for at least some battlefields), it should be ok.
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