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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Racials: Yay or Nay
Thread: Racials: Yay or Nay This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
jackissocool
jackissocool


Hired Hero
posted December 11, 2014 04:35 PM

Personally I would be extremely happy with a return to H5's system. The racial skills are maybe my favorite thing in the whole franchise. I hated the way it was done in H6, it was too homogenized.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted December 11, 2014 04:44 PM
Edited by Galaad at 16:52, 11 Dec 2014.

Zombi_Wizzard said:
I respect your opinion sir, as i think you have a good taste . H5 was a great game indeed.

The only major downside of H5 to me are the graphics (though thanks to Xuxo and other graphical mods has been improved).. But apart from that a great game indeed. I respect your opinion too, as well as Kiryu's, even if the dude tries to sell some floating half rotten Lady as a Lich to Necropolis for the sake of Norse Mythology
I think you two are great new members and it's very nice reading you guys

Now, about the second part of your post
Well wasn't H5 racials exactly what you could call an improvement from H3 ? It's roughly the same, with new features, but built upon.
There is an ERA mod for H3 like that called Sagamosa (didn't play it so much because not very stable, maybe it has been fixed I should check), not like H5 racials, but it has advanced levels for heroes classes.
I never liked much what Stronghold has become with H5, orcs with demon blood really ? Give me back classic Cyclopses instead of that giant meatball !!
I didn't mean to imply that I dislike any change, I just ask for the change to be subtle and coherent enough with the series overall, but I think we agree here. I love alternate champions that will be introduced in MMH7, that's a great addition ! Hopefully we'll get an extra core and elite in expansions as well !
I have to disagree with all your saying about mmh6 though, even on the tier system. Now, I don't dislike particularly the idea of having core/elite/champion, but please make a bigger difference between tier 1 and tier 3 and tier 4 and tier 6 at least. Hopefully according the official news MMH7 will correct this. Overall, to me MMH6 just dropped too many of the core elements of the game, it didn't improved anything, it removed almost everything ! I don't have to write the huge list, as I am sure you are well aware, and is not the topic anyway =)
Finally, yes you are right about this thread, it is always good to generate new ideas, though the subject is tough^^
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Zombi_Wizzard
Zombi_Wizzard


Famous Hero
posted December 11, 2014 06:59 PM

Galaad said:
Now, about the second part of your post
Well wasn't H5 racials exactly what you could call an improvement from H3 ? It's roughly the same, with new features, but built upon.

Ummm no. It wasn't. I don't take mods into account. But H3 didn't have racials, while H5 did. Simple as that. Necromancy was only one which would be considered as maybe a racial. It was just another skill to replace Leadership, since Necros don't have morale ... that's about it. Only thing was that all heroes started with it, while leadership wasn't deafult. To remind you tho - introduction of racials, was begining of the end for mixed armies, since you don't have benefit anymore if your hero or/and unit(s) are diferent faction. And im not saying that I like or that I don't like mixing armies. In fact, I would prefer to hold that opinion to myself.

Galaad said:
I never liked much what Stronghold has become with H5, orcs with demon blood really ? Give me back classic Cyclopses instead of that giant meatball !!

Wasn't refering to how creatures look. To me, looks are of secondary importance, first comes the mechanic of the game. And I found the change in the Stronghold armies quite interasting. The shouts instead of spells, and blood rage mechanic, as well as "shatter" magics were what made this faction that much interasting to play for me. In H3 they simply didn't have magic guild beyond level 3 and that's it. They are "might" faction all of the sudden. H6 was to me a step back, since they were just another faction, and not special anymore.  As for the lore ... i don't know the lore - i played all Heroes games, and never finished single campaign. So i don't realy care if they are spawned from earth, made by wizzards, or are evil half-demon-half-elves ...

Galaad said:
I have to disagree with all your saying about mmh6 though, even on the tier system.

I will allow you to disagree. However I still disagree with your disagreement. Tier system means that all core should be equal in strenght, there's no "tier 1" and "tier 3", so it dosen't make sense if "tier 3" is somehow stronger it's simply non-existent. I actualy dislike this part where Ubi said H7 will have one creature as "stronger" elites and cores. That will only bring back the tiers, but instead of 7 we'll get 5. H6 also introduced tear/blood mechanic. That was interasting - too bad it wasn't implemented properly - it could be tied in to racials, for example, since we're on topic. It could be tied to alternate upgrades ... they could do so much. But they didn't. So i actualy agree with you that H6, when it came actualy only removed things. But i also think, that in it's concept, it had a lot of potential.  

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cliff_nest
cliff_nest


Hired Hero
posted December 12, 2014 01:05 AM
Edited by cliff_nest at 01:07, 12 Dec 2014.

kiryu133 said:
necro heroes should not get an additional army-slot for 2 reasons: balance and discouraging use of living troops.
I thought I mentioned it but I will clarify the extra slot is not used for regular army only the necromancy skill. The discouraging use of living troop? That was always there don't get this one Thank for the precision on slot tough.

Zombi_Wizzard said:
On the contrary, it would give more variety. Idk if you understood what i was suggesting

Zombi_Wizzard said:
When you get a hero, you also pick his "speciality" - be it bringing up the dead, summoning demons or crafting artifacts


I understood you quit clear. My short answer didn't deliver the message. Bland has boring no taste nothing with variety. Even if it's true it can bring variety on the surface, when you really think about it it's a bland idea by the sacrifice it require. Remember that hero trait you had to choose in H6. Are we not screaming for a classic return. Erase Heroes race. How?. Lord haart is and was Haven might knight. How can we call him lord Haart if he has no race no flavor just a name Haart striped of his title. Let's say you call him raceless lord Haart. Why would a light champion dedicated to justice be slapped with dark or satanic racial. That heresy and weird to me. The search for variety does not mean you can just trample over anything. I even think we should backtrack after H6 to more specialization for faction than cutting down around the edges.

Zombi_Wizzard said:
cliff_nest said:
On the other hand we could also get a system that was has H5 was to H4 to H3. All we know about it is a mention of paladin class so who knows

Ummm ... what? I don't understand what you just said here. And im trying.


It was extra info really don't loose your time on understanding that.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted December 12, 2014 01:17 AM
Edited by Galaad at 02:30, 12 Dec 2014.

Zombi_Wizard Well even without this one mod I was talking about, I found the general leveling up system in homm5 quite similar to H3. First you have to choose between two random skills. What H5 did supplied more is that you also get to choose between perks, and you have a racial on top of it. I perfectly see your point about Necromancy etc and I never said the opposite. I apologize for not being clear. I agree that mixing armies in H5 started to be problematic, but not much, I never had problems mixing Titans, Green Dragons and Archangels in H5.
Creature looks of course is something very subjective, but I disagree that they aren’t as important as gameplay. In fact, I would apologize for calling the known Ubi-Cyclop a meatball if you were to like its design very much and felt offended by that statement. As I’ve already said elsewhere and many times, I believe creature looks defines the atmosphere and general environment where you dive in, thus cannot be neglected. Of course a good game needs good gameplay, but it doesn’t make the looks less important, to me is 50%-50%.
Well at least you made your last point very clear. I hated it to have tier system divided ony into 3, having huge amounts of way too powerful considered weak creatures in the previous titles. In mmh6 it was exagerrated to the point Sentinels could take out Fate Weavers.
I hope our misunderstandings have been cleared out
Now to end with racials, my true thinking is that they should keep about the same system as H5, but change its content : different racials, not coming at the expense of the original feel. Easier said than done I know.
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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted December 12, 2014 01:54 AM

cliff_nest said:
Let's say you call him raceless lord Haart. Why would a light champion dedicated to justice be slapped with dark or satanic racial. That heresy and weird to me. The search for variety does not mean you can just trample over anything.


actually to be fair your example happens to be one where a dark and satanic racial would work, because Lord Haart wasn't really a champion of justice, he turned out to be secretly an evil cultist if you care to revisit Heroes 3 lol

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cliff_nest
cliff_nest


Hired Hero
posted December 12, 2014 02:03 AM
Edited by cliff_nest at 02:05, 12 Dec 2014.

@Verriker I was referring to the one in H6 hue hue hue

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Zombi_Wizzard
Zombi_Wizzard


Famous Hero
posted December 12, 2014 09:39 AM

cliff_nest said:
Let's say you call him raceless lord Haart. Why would a light champion dedicated to justice be slapped with dark or satanic racial. That heresy and weird to me. The search for variety does not mean you can just trample over anything.

I'm not a lore guy ... and Lord Haart was just example. But you sound like you're totaly oposed to recruiting heroes from any but your own faction. I'm sorry but in almost all heroes games, i ended up recruiting various hereos from all diferent races throughout the session. Lore dosen't hold much power here. Play as a demon, recruit knight hero .. sure why not? happens to me all the time. Except for H6, where only your heroes are available to recruit, but i don't play that one. In games you end up with diferent combinations ... mixed armies - diferent heroes etc. Having knight lead a dungeon army is nothing new and strange. It's been done in H1, H2, H3, H4, H5 ... I mean have you even played a heroes game?

@Galaad: I get you. Im sorry if i sounded like i totaly dismiss the looks. I don't. It's just that gameplay comes to me first. Ofc everyone has it's own view, to one, looks will be important, another will put lore before anything ... im the gameplay-type guy. And i respect that. People have diferent views, and that is correct way. I presonaly like how H6 looks like - and i still don't like the game - it's because of the gameplay. I agree Cyclops in H5 were terrible in terms of looks, and your "giant meatball" is spot on. But mechanics of stronghold armies were great

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Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted December 12, 2014 10:23 AM

Zombi_Wizzard said:

I agree Cyclops in H5 were terrible in terms of looks, and your "giant meatball" is spot on.


I thought cyclopses in H5 were quite okay and than only with H6 they degenerated into giant meatballs.
Maybe H5 started the trend, but at least they were still towering giants.
In H6 them being even more chubby, combined with their bent posture, maked them look like meatballs.

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cliff_nest
cliff_nest


Hired Hero
posted December 12, 2014 12:58 PM

Zombi_Wizzard said:
I'm not a lore guy ... and Lord Haart was just example


I think we got to the wrong side of thing. My intention where clouded by some word I used in my replies has it was pointed out to me and while re-reading some of it. I may not be the best soft spoken to writing person but I'll try to clarify. What I wanted to convey was my disliking of the idea I have nothing against what you believe in.

You are entitled to your opinion and can express whatever you please. Having one other point of view might bring forth new idea or make you view yours from another angle. I'm not against recruiting other hero and neither do I want it to be different from previous installment. I'll I wish to express is my disliking to having a hero choosing is racial and that me personally. I might have expressed it to vigorously. For that I apologies.

I will also apologies for that last sentence. I should have kept it to my opinion and not toward you. It's alright if you are not a lore guy you still share a passion for this game.

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RMZ1989
RMZ1989


Supreme Hero
posted December 12, 2014 04:33 PM

Steyn said:
Zombi_Wizzard said:

I agree Cyclops in H5 were terrible in terms of looks, and your "giant meatball" is spot on.


I thought cyclopses in H5 were quite okay and than only with H6 they degenerated into giant meatballs.
Maybe H5 started the trend, but at least they were still towering giants.
In H6 them being even more chubby, combined with their bent posture, maked them look like meatballs.

I second this, Cyclops in H5 were amazing, the biggest units in the game, the true giants, they were horrifying when you meet them on the battlefield.

On other hand, H6 Cyclops were giant meatballs and reminded me of some giant red Frogs...
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become his true self.

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mike80d
mike80d


Famous Hero
Map Maker
posted December 15, 2014 03:50 PM
Edited by mike80d at 15:52, 15 Dec 2014.

RMZ1989 said:
Steyn said:
Zombi_Wizzard said:

I agree Cyclops in H5 were terrible in terms of looks, and your "giant meatball" is spot on.


I thought cyclopses in H5 were quite okay and than only with H6 they degenerated into giant meatballs.
Maybe H5 started the trend, but at least they were still towering giants.
In H6 them being even more chubby, combined with their bent posture, maked them look like meatballs.

I second this, Cyclops in H5 were amazing, the biggest units in the game, the true giants, they were horrifying when you meet them on the battlefield.

On other hand, H6 Cyclops were giant meatballs and reminded me of some giant red Frogs...


Yeah, I loved the H5 Cyclops and couldn't stand the H6 Cyclops that looked like a blob with a head.  When also factoring in the way too high of Champion growth rate of H6 and the appropriate growth rate of H5, the H5 cyclops even more felt like a unique and threatening foe.  
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