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| Thread: IT or nothing |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Zenofex
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posted December 11, 2014 03:24 PM |
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DagothGares said:
You'd be a fool not to. You freed humanity from labour. A post-scarcity world could become a reality with that technology.
It will also turn the vast majority of that humanity into amoebae.
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OhforfSake
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posted December 11, 2014 03:57 PM |
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markkur said:
Let me ask you a hypo-question; if you had in your hands the Tech that could replace "a human-being doing any activity" and selling it would make you richer than a hundred Bill Gates...would you sell it?
That's the thing I don't understand in the argument against robots replacing human labor. As far as I understood it goes something like this:
We work to provide for ourselves so we can survive. If a robot takes our job, we've no work, so we cannot provide for ourselves, hence we cannot survive.
However it's not the payment for labor, but the actual work we do which makes survival possible in the first place. The only reason we've payment is for people to work, so we can survive. If robots can do the work, money won't be needed and everyone can get what they beforehand needed a job to be able to get.
The other argument against often goes along the lines of enjoyment of work, but no one can hopefully tell someone what they can and can't work with in their own time.. the only difference should then be that they'll be their own boss, but they should now have the time to be able to enjoy this activity when it suits them.
the human mind is more complex than that, but that's at least the gist of it.
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kayna
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posted December 11, 2014 04:26 PM |
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DagothGares said:
You'd be a fool not to. You freed humanity from labour. A post-scarcity world could become a reality with that technology.
This would lower the need and importance of humans which would have many negative effects, especially if the people governing us doesn't care about the rest.
The low quantity of jobs left versus the high quantity of humans applying to those would create a new requirement to meet, one I would name "boot licking". If robots were everywhere to work for us, and let's say the republicans are in power, then applying to a job that requires X and Y competences, you might have to have X competence, Y competence + be republican!
Not to mention that the rest of the population would be on welfare, and the welfare $ is strictly decided by the higher ups again.
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OhforfSake
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posted December 11, 2014 04:38 PM |
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No one would need to apply to any job. They'd have the leisure to create the job they like and wouldn't even be dependent on making a profit. There'd always be a net of automated processes making sure society can be uphold without any requirement those processes cannot sustain by themselves.
Beside, the only reason we've someone in charge is to distribute our goods as effectively as possible and make our lives as high quality as possible, I can imagine a scenario where some people are at a disadvantage when goods are limited, but the limiting factor is the work force and how well it's put to use. This factor won't exist under the circumstances presented.
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mvassilev
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posted December 11, 2014 05:09 PM |
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markkur said:
Let me ask you a hypo-question; if you had in your hands the Tech that could replace "a human-being doing any activity" and selling it would make you richer than a hundred Bill Gates...would you sell it?
That depends on what "replace" means, but if I'm interpreting this question correctly, then yes, I would. But in the long run, machines don't replace workers as such, they change the wages for which it is optimal to employ workers in a given industry, which often shifts workers to other industries where wages are higher.
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OhforfSake
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posted December 11, 2014 05:17 PM |
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Ultimately the only difference between an optimal machine and a human is that the human requires resources beyond the minimum for getting the work done..
Robots on conveyor belts is a blessing, but it doesn't mean it's all machines even now. It's a work in progress and as it is currently we'd be lucky to have machines to replace the most menial tasks. Also there may exist a group of work which has e.g. being human as a prerequisite just like you might need a woman for a role in play without that making it sexist..
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kayna
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posted December 11, 2014 05:22 PM |
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I doubt it. There's always gonna be some jobs for humans, even if it's just overseeing robots.
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DagothGares
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posted December 11, 2014 05:36 PM |
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But the question presented was: what if no humans were needed? I assume dthis meant that the machines could care for themselves. A post-scarcity world, a la star trek, so every human has every step of the pyramid of needs fulfilled except the last one and he has his entire life to dedicate on that last one.
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Doomforge
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posted December 11, 2014 05:52 PM |
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An even bigger question is: why nobody gives a damn about teaching High schoolers about job offers?
I mean, nowadays it's easy, just log in on a job portal and check. You can see right away what to study.
But when I was 17, Internet in Poopland was scarce, and there wasn't much content. Nobody told us what to expect - we were literally in the dark. Some of us did terrible choices. Like the philosophy  Me, I screwed up too because the solution was to study programming. Too bad I didn't know.
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Adrius
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posted December 11, 2014 05:54 PM |
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Unless we have like ZEH SINGULARITY and machines get empathy and feelings and **** I doubt the service sector can be replaced. I imagine that in the end we will all work there, in service of each other... teaching, social work, policework, therapy, politics etc etc... while all matters of production will be handled by machines.
I don't think we lose all purpose just because we cannot be part of production any more. Sounds like the capitalism having brainwashed us completely haha... CONSUME AND PRODUCE OR DIE!
We'd start doing recreational things all day, delving deeper into our hedonism until we have like pleasure cults all over exploring the utmost of drugs and sex, and then the collective orgasms of our people echo through the void and spurs the creation of a warpgod that eats the souls of everyone. Sweet.
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OhforfSake
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posted December 11, 2014 05:55 PM |
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I think it's also bad that some times those who are to guide you in potential prospect have their own agendas and will therefore over represent certain paths that are inferior.
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Fauch
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posted December 11, 2014 06:01 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 18:09, 11 Dec 2014.
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Zenofex said:
DagothGares said:
You'd be a fool not to. You freed humanity from labour. A post-scarcity world could become a reality with that technology.
It will also turn the vast majority of that humanity into amoebae.
most likely everyone, except you 
Quote:
I doubt the service sector can be replaced.
actually I think the contrary, it could be the first to disappear. I think the main reason we need it is because people have so little time now. once we are freed from work, services will be mostly given by your family, friends and neighbours.
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Adrius
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posted December 11, 2014 06:28 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 18:33, 11 Dec 2014.
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Hmm... yeah maybe if we get more time, better relationships with others that can respond quicker to social problems... we could reduce drug misuse and other stuff... act before it gets big. Live for each other.
But you know, it's funny it's not seen as "work", giving service to your family or friends, or just fellow humans. I think it qualifies as work, definitely. Often raised as an argument in feminist analyses... the untold amount of "free" work done by women at home and in relationships... kinda problematic how despite it consuming energy and helping someone else it's just seen as something that is to be done, something that is your duty, not paid.
From my perspective as a social worker... I've been working in the drug unit for a few months now... have mothers calling every day reporting in on how their sons are doing, how much they inject, smoke etc... 24/7 unpaid service they're providing for their children. They use all the time they have and it's not nearly enough.
If we got more time for that... helping these people... hell they could use the help I tell you, social problems ain't going away easily. Moar service people please.
Somewhere along the line we'll have to redefine what "work" is, imo. At the current rate we'll phase out our purpose in life to machines  Seeing as how much suffering we have in our world I think we'd all benefit from working in service of each other, and beyond that in helping each other develop into better people.
EDIT:
Also it would totally suck if you would all just sort yourself out. Dafuq am I supposed to work with?
J/k that'd be awesome. Love.
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Zenofex
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posted December 11, 2014 06:37 PM |
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Doomforge said:
An even bigger question is: why nobody gives a damn about teaching High schoolers about job offers?
I mean, nowadays it's easy, just log in on a job portal and check. You can see right away what to study.
But when I was 17, Internet in Poopland was scarce, and there wasn't much content. Nobody told us what to expect - we were literally in the dark. Some of us did terrible choices. Like the philosophy Me, I screwed up too because the solution was to study programming. Too bad I didn't know.
Because a decade and a half ago there was no labour market in that part of Europe, at least not what we currently have. "Looking for a job" was pretty much something non-existent during the socialist times, the state found a job for your before you even finish studying. That's how it was in Bulgaria at least, I doubt that Poland was very different. Then the USSR dropped dead and suddenly a whole system needed to be revised. That doesn't happen overnight.
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Fauch
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posted December 11, 2014 06:38 PM |
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well, some people even say that social workers don't work but are like parasites because they don't generate profit and are paid with tax money... some people have the brain eaten by money.
in another hand, a trader can generate a lot of profit, does it mean it is work?
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OhforfSake
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posted December 11, 2014 06:52 PM |
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I'll risk saying "of course" the work done for your home and family is as much "work" as any kind of income giving "work", but maybe work is the wrong word to use?
I like to think that when I study I do work, but I don't like to call it work.. work has a very negative meaning for me, where it has a very positive meaning for others. I remember I found a word I liked in stead more than once, but I keep forgetting it.
But trying to generalize, anything we do that is in favor of others or our own future in some way or other could be considered work, because it gives a potential gain to society.. in that sense adding breaks to your work schedule could be called work as well, because it's believed the right amount of breaks increases effectivity and therefore provides more from your work.
About the social sector I do think it's a strong point, but I've also experienced companies with monopoly on their trade and their workers not putting the "customer" first, but in stead tries to reduce the customer to a minimum of effort and a maximum of gain and I don't like that approach when it's the service sector, where the person should be #1 priority in my opinion.
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kayna
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posted December 11, 2014 07:21 PM |
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Adrius said:
Unless we have like ZEH SINGULARITY and machines get empathy and feelings and **** I doubt the service sector can be replaced. I imagine that in the end we will all work there, in service of each other... teaching, social work, policework, therapy, politics etc etc... while all matters of production will be handled by machines.
In a world where police get increasingly pussey by shooting guns every single moment they fear for their lives like when some unarmed black guy walks down a staircase or reach for his ID papers in his car, maybe police robots would be better.
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kayna
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posted December 11, 2014 07:25 PM |
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Fauch said:
in another hand, a trader can generate a lot of profit, does it mean it is work?
A sad mistake many people do ; many think that the quantity of money you make is directly related to how useful you are to the society. It's not the case. We don't even need to compare oranges and apples ; it's a free market and some guy can do a job for 2 000$ and some other guy can do the same job for 1 000 $ in the same time and yada yada.
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Doomforge
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posted December 11, 2014 07:30 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Because a decade and a half ago there was no labour market in that part of Europe, at least not what we currently have. "Looking for a job" was pretty much something non-existent during the socialist times, the state found a job for your before you even finish studying. That's how it was in Bulgaria at least, I doubt that Poland was very different. Then the USSR dropped dead and suddenly a whole system needed to be revised. That doesn't happen overnight.
True, but we can't blame the commies infinitely. I finished High school in 2006. That's a lot of time for a country to reorganize itself and reform the teaching method. To be honest, up to this day schools just don't offer any help with picking a potential job. I know that one may dream of becoming, idk, a biologist (enthusiastic young people tend to think of many occupations in an exaggerated way), but why can't he be shown - through, say, high school - what a day of biologist' work looks like? Maybe after seeing it he decides that trimming sheep is way more fun (just like I did)?  And that's several years of going in circles less..
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Zenofex
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posted December 11, 2014 07:34 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 19:35, 11 Dec 2014.
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I'm not blaming anyone, just saying that it was a different system, with different focus and requirements. When you have no experience with market economy (or any unfamiliar type of economy) and you forcefully migrate to it, you can't adjust multiple aspects of the social life in a few years. It could have taken less for sure but the somewhat slow speed is not really surprising.
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