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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 30, 2015 08:21 PM |
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great work. 
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Darkem
Known Hero
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posted May 30, 2015 08:36 PM |
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Outstanding work!
Snakeman looks definitely better then the previous one. Trith should get some quality pints for that.
Now, when Oasis has 3 intelligent races in the lineup (Human, cats and snakemen) should a snakemen heroes be considered? What do you think about it?
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted May 30, 2015 10:09 PM |
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Quote:
I like the look and idea of the Fire and Ice Wands, but those items will also strenghen might heroes even more and they are already overpowered.
I think quite the opposite. Magic heroes will obviously benefit more from free spells as they have higher spellpower. Plus there will be finally a way to use magic heroes for daily fights on random maps, as they can cast spells without spending precious mana.
____________
The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Haregar
Famous Hero
of destruction
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posted May 31, 2015 12:26 AM |
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Nephretes said:
@Haregar
"Greater Lamassu" is on the other hand too long name, it will not be visible in fort
I thought it might be too long, but I compared it to "Ancient Behemoth". If you count a space between two words of each unit, then "Greater Lamassu" is 15 letters and "Ancient Behemoth" is made from 16 letters, so I think there won't be much problems with the idea of upgraded Lamassu I wrote, but it's up to you. 
About Vipers, they look excellent! Trith did a great work (as always).
culgil said:
I just hope there will be a game version one day which allows to play Oasis and Cove together on the same map. These two are the best fan-made towns so far, IMO (...).
I think the same; having an opportunity to play with Cove and Oasis on the same map would be a great experience, as for Cove is the best released town so far in my oppinion, and Oasis is the best active project.
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culgil
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 31, 2015 01:34 AM |
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Interesting thoughts, Warmonger. We seem to have started from different assumptions about the proporties of those items and therefore arrived at different conclusions:
1) I assumed that, like Titan's Thunder, the Wands give a spell with no mana cost and a fixed amount of damage.
Then spell power and knowlegde are irrelevant (and level of wisdom and elemental magic, too), which greatly benefits might heroes, who would be able to deal damage with spells even if they have run out of mana or have no decent spell power or no sufficient wisdom to learn the spell regularly.
2) You seem to assume that the Wands give a spell with no mana cost, but normal amount of damage (at expert level I guess).
Then, as you say, heroes with higher spell power profit more. This option would especially strengthen Warlocks and heroes with sorcery and is indeed an interesting alternative.
3) Third option would be that Wands give a spell at normal mana cost with a fixed amount of damage.
Then (magic) heroes with higher knowledge and/or intelligence would profit most, because they can afford the mana costs. This option might be interesting, because Wizards are perhaps the weakest hero class now and they would profit most. Also mana-related unit abilities would still apply (like mage's reduction of mana cost, mana channel and mana drain).
Finally, I would say, that both option 2 and 3 are better than option 1, because with option 1 might heroes would profit most and could compensate multiple of their magical weaknesses at the same time (low spell power, low knowledge, no wisdom at start). Imagine a similar item that compensates for weaknesses of magic heroes: let's say, the attack and/or defense of one of your unit stacks increases at least by 10, even if your hero's stats are lower than that. That would devaluate attack/defense skill points similar to how some artefacts devaluate spell power/knowledge skill points (option 2 devaluates knowledge points and intelligence while option 3 devaluates spell power and sorcery).
Besides all that, mass spells are anyway more important than damage spells, so the impact of the wards on game balance is limited and the discussion perhaps a bit "academic". I just thought that in the long run magic heroes could be strenghtened by strategically introducing new artefacts suitable for that purpose.
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Solon
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 31, 2015 06:54 PM |
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Edited by Solon at 18:56, 31 May 2015.
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On the creatures. Maybe call the 'Wasp' a 'Vespid'? After all, it's not a regular wasp in the slightest!
I have similar reservations about calling the Lamassu a 'statue', which seems a bit dull for such a fantastic looking creature. A few ideas for the upgrade could be Bull Lamassu, Lamassu Taurus, Dread Lamassu, Lamassu Sar (Hebrew equivalent of the Babylonian word for king, 'sarru') Lamassu Patriarch (it's the beard) or Lamassu Despot?
I think the name 'Sand Ghost' is fine, especially if its backstory is along the lines of disembodied 'spirits of the desert' getting a corporeal form instead of simply being sand elementals.
Perhaps make the upgrade 'Sand Revenant'? As a Chinese word, Dao sounds a little odd for a Middle Eastern theme (the original Dungeon and Dragons Dao was riffing on a Mongolian theme, since there was a Dao 'Great Khan' - which doesn't seem applicable to a desert oasis).
I think the Snake Men also need a more exciting name - Slyth, or something like that.
Regarding the artifacts... Maybe the footwear could be 'Feet of the Dunes' - X% likely for a battlefield to be sand. It also means Oasis get to fight on sand more often, even when actual adventure map sand isn't around much. Of course, this would be useless to non-Oasis heroes so maybe instead they could be 'Feet of Favour' - X% likely for a battlefield to be the land type of the hero (e.g. heretic gets lava, knight gets grass, witch gets swamp etc.). One of those things you have to think about before wearing.
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revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted May 31, 2015 09:28 PM |
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Wands should be used only by magic heroes. Everything else will break the game as might heroes will have an even easier time clearing map.
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culgil
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 01, 2015 01:48 AM |
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Edited by culgil at 02:52, 06 Jun 2015.
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@Nephretes
Thanks for your words. And very nice Snakeman/Viper graphics! Very Heroes 3-ish so to say... I like the colours and the body and tail movement, which is quite close to Medusa and Naga. Two comments:
How is the unit going to shoot? I mean with which weapon / body part? I guess for melee hands/claws will be used, but I don't see yet how shooting will be done.
The upgraded version has got a grey kind of cloth(?) below the belt. I am not so sure if this is necessary. I guess it rather could be left away, unupgraded version hasn't it either.
Concerning secondary skills (chances on level up):
Your list sounds good already. Normally might heroes have higher chances for battle and movement skills, while magic heroes have higher chances for magic-focused skills, although there are interesting exceptions (Tribute to Strategists gives a good overview).
So, roughly, it could be like this:
Bedouin (might hero) focusses on Logistics, Pathfinding, Scouting and Tactics; No Water Magic
? (magic hero) focusses on Diplomacy, Earth and Fire Magic and Wisdom; No Navigation
But of course, you don't have to stick to "normal" pattern completely. E.g. you could also exchange Logistics and Diplomacy focus (would even fit because here Diplo does not mean intelligent bargaining, but rather slavery threat! For Cove also might hero has higher chance for Diplomacy than magic hero).
Anyway, Logistics, Diplomacy, Earth Magic and Tactics are all very strong skills and should therefore be split between might and magic hero classes.
Also, secondary skills obviously interact with primary skills, so at the end the overall package is what counts. I guess some good testing needs to be done for all those values.
Another aspect of the overall package is starting secondary skills.
For all normal towns (besides Necropolis), all magic heroes start with Wisdom, while the might heroes mostly have certain starting skills depending on their town and sometimes race (no pattern seems to exist for Inferno and Cove):
Knights: Leadership
Barbarians: Offense
Beastmasters: Armorer
Alchemists: Mysticism (4 humans) / Scholar (4 genies)
Rangers: Archery (3 elfs) / Resistance (3 dwarves) / Leadership (2 humans)
Overlords: Offense (3 troglodytes) / Leadership (3 humans) / Tactics (2 minotaurs)
Planeswalkers: Offense (4 fire or psychic elementals) / Tactics (4 water or earth elementals)
And here Darkem's post comes in. If you have cats, humans and perhaps also snakemen as might heroes, you could give them different starting skills, for example
Pathfinding (cats), Tactics (snakemen), Diplomacy? (humans)
But Diplomacy can be very strong, so this seems only doable if you have only 2 human might heroes, I would say. Alternatives for humans are perhaps Sorcery / Mysticism / Intelligence (would fit to fakir), although Sorcery is quite useless if hero class has no high spell power (and might heroes normally don't). If there are no snakemen heroes (or if they start with a different skill), Tactics can be given to human might heroes.
Very long post, sorry for that. Hope it'll be some help...
EDIT: initially cited list on Age of Heroes seems to be wrong. replaced with Tribute to Strategists.
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Nephretes
Promising
Known Hero
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posted June 01, 2015 11:14 PM |
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@Darkem
For snakeman heroes - well, why not, but I think that it should have more characteristics of a man than snake in that case. It would look strange to ride horse with that tail. With this said I would go for something like that:
@Culgil
Idea behind wands was to have fixed amount of damage, but very low comparing to Titan's Thunder. There might be some issue balance with that, so we should reconsider it again I guess. We will see what can be done under VCMI to mantain game balance
@Haregar
Well, you are right, I am getting slowly convinced to not use "Statue" as a name for this creature.
@Solon
It is not regular wasp, but similar creature appeared in M&M series, so I would stay true to that. There was also snakeman in one of games, but our creature is not that similar so we can go in other direction.
I like your proposition for "Feet of Favour", I've been searching for some cool idea for artifacts and that is one of those.
@Culgil 2
Snakeman is going to spit venom, with some ability, but number of shoots will be low. There are some examples in nature to think about
Snakeman is the least civilized race of Oasis pack, but still enough to wear some clothes in my opinion
As for secondary skills you proposed some good ideas. I think that Pathfinding is going to be considered as a "class ability".
Starting skills are almost planned, but I will still deliver your ideas to person responsible for it. Thanks for your ideas.
I was busy this weekend, but I worked a little on hero def on battle. Now it won't be that short and fat as it was. I think that now it has right proportions
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culgil
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 02, 2015 09:14 AM |
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Nephretes said:
@Haregar
Well, you are right, I am getting slowly convinced to not use "Statue" as a name for this creature.
What about "Elder Lamassu"? (or "Lamassu Elder")
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 02, 2015 11:08 AM |
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Edited by Macron1 at 11:16, 02 Jun 2015.
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Lamassu - Lamassu Tsar (or Lamassu Monarch, Lamassu Shah)
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Haregar
Famous Hero
of destruction
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posted June 03, 2015 12:57 AM |
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culgil said:
Nephretes said:
@Haregar
Well, you are right, I am getting slowly convinced to not use "Statue" as a name for this creature.
What about "Elder Lamassu"? (or "Lamassu Elder")
I thought about "Elder Lamassu" name, but in my oppinion "Greater Lamassu" is more proper. Not because it was I who suggested it, but because in my oppinion it fits better Lamassu's upgraded version.
If I were to say something about names suggested by Macron1 , then they completely do not fit the unit, although the very last decission lies in hands of Nephretes.
@Nephretes
Yup, I highly recommend not using "Statue" as a name for that unit. If it's about snakeman's clothes, then I don't see any problem in them. Snakemen have some more intellect than regular snakes (obvious  ), so upgraded versions can wear clothes (as well as can be controlled by their commanders). It's logic for me.
I also like the idea of spitting, but with limited amount of "shots". When I saw a Snakeman you posted, I though immediately "that thing must spit, but not much!". In other words, good choice!
What's more, there definitely should be a hero specialised in those vipers and some heroes that can be related to snakemen's race, but with the difference of being more humanoid. That's why your concept of their pictures is perfect: ugly, snake-like and ferocious look, but not being fully a snakeman.
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culgil
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 03, 2015 01:59 PM |
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More ideas:
Ancient Statue -> Lamassu
Animated Statue -> Lamassu
Gatekeeper -> Lamassu
Town/Palace Guard -> Lamassu
(Lamassu statues have been used as giant gatekeepers of towns etc.)
Another thought about secondary skills:
When I recognized again that the magic hero is called "Dervish", I immediately associated Mysticism with that (dancing dervishs and so on). So high chances for Mysticism might be a possibility as well.
Would also be a good addition to the rather strong skills already discussed for this class (Logistics or Diplomacy + Earth Magic + Fire Magic).
PS: Spitting and few shots fits indeed well.
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Nephretes
Promising
Known Hero
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posted June 03, 2015 11:18 PM |
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I will keep you updated when I've decided what names we are going to use. Meantime I was working on hero sprites, and I came up with this:
I hope you like them
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Haregar
Famous Hero
of destruction
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posted June 04, 2015 12:40 AM |
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Nephretes said:
(...) Meantime I was working on hero sprites, and I came up with this:
(...)
I hope you like them
Like? I love them.  I won't lie if I say they look way better than some original hero sprites from the game.
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DariusArgent
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 04, 2015 03:32 AM |
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Love the Dervish, much better than the previous iteration. I hope it stays this way.
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 05, 2015 07:33 PM |
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Edited by Macron1 at 19:37, 05 Jun 2015.
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Nephretes said:
I will keep you updated when I've decided what names we are going to use. Meantime I was working on hero sprites, and I came up with this:
I hope you like them
This map hero sits too low on horse. I think he must sit like female hero - with flat torso up high. Now he looks like deadly wounded.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted June 05, 2015 10:28 PM |
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The battle heroes look very good, but I think the adventure sprites could use some improvements. Compared to the original heroes they look small, also they look a little bit too overdecorated, but that may look better once you increase their size.
Anyway, good work as always
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Haregar
Famous Hero
of destruction
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posted June 09, 2015 01:02 AM |
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I think they are neither small or look small; about "overdecoration" it can't be different as for that kind of appearance is generally in accordence with Arabic character of the town.
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Nephretes
Promising
Known Hero
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posted June 16, 2015 03:00 AM |
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Well, it may be overdecorated, but I like it that way and I think that it fits nicely to the theme. I will upgrade man hero for sure.
I am back with a little sneak peak of last unit to be made and the most troublesome (too many legs x_x) It evolved a little, and I am still improving it, but any suggestions are good to hear.
Let's finish those creatures and focus on other things
And as we are getting closer to finish that part let's compare with original units
I may be doing Lamassu again..
Edit:
You may say that it is too saturated against Tower, so let's see how it works with warm inferno
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This thread is pages long: 
