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| Thread: Random Skill System Implementation |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 21, 2014 11:08 PM |
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Poll Question:
Random Skill System Implementation
H5 arguably featured the best system of the series, with skills unlocking a series of similarly themed basic and advanced abilities. While random, you could play around with the possibilities to influence the outcome, there was a controlled randomness so to say. Of course, H5 only has 4 magic schools of which two were the more common while H7 not only increases the amount of schools but doesn't seem to place any restrictions either. It is likely that aside from the one favoured school of the faction, the rest will be promoted equally which could clutter the level up choices quite a bit.
I have no reason to believe there will be a drastic redesign of the system so given its framework, I believe that we need access to more skills/abilities per level up. Enough that we would have control over our hero build but not so many that we would have a hard time deciding.
I have three simple propositions:
1) On level up you have a two choices: The first one is whether to learn a new skill/ability or improve upon an existing one. According to your choice you then get to choose between 2 new skills and 2 new abilities or two advanced skills and two advanced abilities.
2) On level up you have a two choices: The first one is whether you learn a skill or whether you learn an ability. According to your choice you then get to choose between 2 new skills and 2 advanced skills or two basic abilities and two advanced abilities.
3) You are offered 4 skill categories. Whichever you pick opens up the skill tree and you can choose one of its abilities or to level up that skill. If you lack basic in that skill its abilities remain inaccessible but you can still see them.
The reasoning behind them is a system that is simple and easy to implement but also not radically different from its manual counterpart. It would be confusing to have two very different systems, one random and one manual so some consistency is required. It also has a structure that is easy to follow which can help you plan ahead on your next level ups. What do you think? If you have another alternative that fills those criteria I'd be interested in hearing it.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted December 21, 2014 11:26 PM |
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Edited by TDL at 23:32, 21 Dec 2014.
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I am heavily leaning towards the second option if I understood it right, but more or less along the lines of the 3rd option. So that you get my meaning:
1) Hero gains enough experience to level up
2) Level up screen appears
3) Option a: you are presented a two-choice menu: skills or abilities. On click two choices for either appear. Alternatively, grays out the options which are not eligible.
4) Option b: you are presented a two-choice menu (ie, a circle in the form of yin yang) which on click divides into to and reveals two screens: one is the choices (represented by a rectangle) and the other is the full skill tree of the skill in question and where along that tree the skill is placed.
Either way, it'd be perfect. However, IMHO, there is substantial reason to show the whole potential skill tree in the hero's screen (or via a popup window etc) within the game. It doesn't matter all that much if it is done via levelups or straight in the hero screen as suggested, but for a 2015 game, you shouldn't be required to find out every skill dependency manually - there should be a skill tree visible somewhere, so as long as it doesn't clutter the screen/ui.
EDIT:
If you want to see a visual representation of what I think may be done, go launch a video of Dragon Age Inquisition's war council.
Intro to DAO War map (such a menu could popup for levelup choice menu)
Skill trees (on hero screen/level up)
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted December 21, 2014 11:34 PM |
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Number #3 is nearly randomless, I don't like it.
Both options #1 and #2 sound good to me, but if I had to choose I would go with #2. I like more the idea of choosing to work on your skills or your abilities rather than choosing to learn something new or improve something you have.
Indeed, option #2 is the most appealing to me. It gives a fair amount of randomness while giving a bit of control to the player, and it should provide (sometimes) with situations where you aren't offered what you seek and you must make a decision between other choices...and maybe force you to change your tactics a bit 
Needless to say that being able to see the skillwheel WHILE leveling up is a must at this age.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 22, 2014 12:31 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 01:16, 22 Dec 2014.
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I don't see the need to basically double the option pool compared to what the system of Heroes 5 gives you: 1 new skill, 1 upgraded skill and 2 perks. Sure, we might get more than 15 skills considering that we'd already have 7 skills as elemental schools. But there are restrictions and, hopefully, percentages that favor certain skills depending on faction/class/etc.
I myself am in favor of a flexible randomness, as in the player can improve his chance towards a certain "area" of skills. So, if the system is composed of areas containing similar skills, like Magic containing all 7 skill schools, Might containing Attack, Defense, Archery, etc. , Tactical containing Tactics, Logistics, etc., and another category comprising skills like Enlightenment, Sorcery, maybe some Wisdom skill, etc. , then a player can somehow select/favor a certain area to maybe get a skill/perk of his desire to drop when leveling up.
This in itself is somewhat a new mechanic, the influencing of your chance. And it doesn't need to be limited to your Hero preferring a category of skills at a time. You can factor in other agents, for example like "Weeks of", or a map object buff. The thing that I like about it is that you're still playing with the dice, rather than just double the amount of options you get. That's gratuitous.
And speaking of which, there are 2 big flaws with all the options you gave. The first being that you're not giving all the options at once, but you make the player choose a category. If he chooses one and he doesn't get what he wants, that will frustrate him, and he'll end up with that "what if I chose the other one" feeling. And the second flaw which will naturally follow from the first one is that there will be tons of reload abuse to bypass the restrictions of the system. Maybe not in multiplayer, unless they agree which sometimes happens, but always in single player.
Actually, if the system is anything less than what was in Heroes 5, with the restrictions there, then there's no point in having a random system to begin with! Of course the options have to be limited, that's the entire reason we pushed for it! You'd want randomness precisely because you want to roll the dice, and precisely because there is a real chance to get something you wouldn't want to get! That's why it's interesting, that's why you think it works the same way for you and for your opponent and hope for his share of misfortune, so it's a fair gamble! If chances are that a skill build of a hero would be barely different from what you'd get by choosing in an all pick situation... then what's the point?!
On another note, I agree that the game should include a graphic display of your Hero's specific Skillwheel under some Skills tab in your Hero's profile that updates automatically, so that you don't have to fumble manually after everything. The information is crucial and it doesn't take away anything from a tactical point of view. You will want to know what perks a skill has, the faction/class specific perks, their position on the wheel and their prerequisites. That should be the minimum for a start. Also think of the newcomers, such a display is just a necessity. And if the game has randomness off then you can just select the skills from there, so no need for additional implementation.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 22, 2014 01:11 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 01:12, 22 Dec 2014.
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I basically agree with everything Stevie said.
It is not the leveling up screen that was a problem in H5, but its content. If the skills and abilities are well-thought as well as the probabilities of getting X or Y depending on your progress (and why not, on other external events as well), we should get a somehow improved H5 skillwheel.
As Elvin said, H5 arguably had the best skill system to date, so why not keep the same root and improve its development ? It feels more safe to guarantee success in RS implementation than proposing a new approach.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted December 22, 2014 02:31 AM |
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I wouldn't put it past them to actually leave a spot open on the levelup for an ever-present racial. Which wouldn't be so bad really.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted December 22, 2014 11:04 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 11:05, 22 Dec 2014.
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TDL's idea is the best in my opinion should they choose to implement a new system; however, I agree with Stevie the Heroes 5 system was good already I would rather they make a good system better than risk a new but potentially not as good system.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 22, 2014 11:49 AM |
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I like random skills. But if system will be like in H5 with cross-skill requierments, and ultimates, I will personaly turn that option OFF.
All that perks should require is aproprieate skill. And that's it. Example: you need skill:"war machines" in order to get perk:"tipple balista". You shouldn't need Attack and Archery also.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted December 22, 2014 11:55 AM |
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I always thought Ultimates will never see the light again, since they are a stupid concept
H5 without ultimates and a bit of twisting would be great indeed, but I thought Elvin wanted to explore something a bit different?
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted December 22, 2014 12:13 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
I like random skills. But if system will be like in H5 with cross-skill requierments, and ultimates, I will personaly turn that option OFF.
All that perks should require is aproprieate skill. And that's it. Example: you need skill:"war machines" in order to get perk:"tipple balista". You shouldn't need Attack and Archery also.
I don't know, I liked those kind of things as long requirements weren't too extreme. It was a nice way to balance some really strong skills, as you were limited to what you can pick if you want for example triple ballista and it was harder to get than other skills, but still not really hard like ultimates.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted December 22, 2014 12:20 PM |
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted December 22, 2014 01:19 PM |
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I think I would prefer a different version of #3:
1) You are given a choice with 2 alternatives. The first is "new skill" where a random new skill is displayed, the second is "upgrade skill", but does not display which skill.
- If you choose "new skill" you get the random skill displayed.
- If you choose "upgrade skill" you enter the skilltree of a random chategory you already have. Here you can choose to either advance your skill, or choose one of the abilities for that skill of which you have all the prerequisites.
2) When you can't choose more new skills you are given a choice between two upgrade skills, but this time the two optional categories are displayed.
3) If all your skills are fully upgraded you are given a choice between two random new skills.
This is basically an improved version of the H5 system. The "new skill"-part is the same, but the "upgrade" part is somewhat changed. On one side you have more randomness now, since you don't know what category you'll end up upgrading. But on the other hand you have more control, because if you don’t want the new skill (as most often is the case) you still have a choice with limits.
* Alternatively the upgrade skill can show the category in advance, but I think that removes too much randomness.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 22, 2014 02:14 PM |
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RMZ1989 said:
I don't know, I liked those kind of things as long requirements weren't too extreme. It was a nice way to balance some really strong skills, as you were limited to what you can pick if you want for example triple ballista and it was harder to get than other skills, but still not really hard like ultimates.
That's poor way of balancing. For exmaple. Let's add this perk to the game: "all your creatures take 0 damage from all sources and are immune to all spells". But it's "ballanced" by requiering 10 diferent perks, from 5 diferent skills, that are otherwise bad, and you won't be choosing them for the most part. And ofc skills and preks are random. Is then game balanced?
I know im exaggerating this a lot, but that's what "ultimates" were acutaly about. They were supposed to give you this awsome perk, like 100% luck, or 500 rage at start or something... but were "ballanced" by being hard to get. Most of them were extemly nice to have, but in about 95% of my games be it multi or single player I never even tried to get them, becuse it wasn't worth the risk.
And that's the main point. Sure you said you don't like ultimates. But same goes for non ultimates aswell. Let's say we're talking about "Tripple flaming ballista strategy" in H5. That was realy good early gmae. So why did you choose skill "War Machines" at level 2 for example? ... because you wanted to make triple balista work. You knew in ADVANCE what you want and you PLANED for it. So let's say you skipped "Logistics" for that. And now ... Attack skill, that is also required dosen't show up untill you're level 15. That screwed your plan. And now you have a skill that's not terrible ... it's ok, but you don't get that tripple flaming ballista. You also don't get Logistics, and you skiped other skills/combos aswell ... maybe even threw away chance to get you'r ultimate coz og it. Let's say your oponent gets lucky+swift gating combo going on. And defets you. Not coz he's a better player, but because you got screwd by random system and he wasn't.
A good random skill system is NOT the one that makes you feel like you got "lucky" and won the lottery, or that you got "screwed" and failed.
A good random skill system IS the one that makes you choose diferent strategy, and forces you to addapt to the situation, but can work equaly well regardles whether you got "War Machines" or "Defence" or any other skill. It just makes you play diferently, but not at a dissadvantage.
You can't and shouldn't plan your "hero build" if skills are random. And planning is part of any strategy, if you call it a strategy and not a game of luck. However you also don't plan your other enviorment, like archers that protect your stone mine. Instead you adapt to it, by rearanging your army, and picking diferent priorities in your creeping stage. And in random skill system skills are also part of that "enviorment".
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted December 22, 2014 02:36 PM |
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Edited by RMZ1989 at 14:39, 22 Dec 2014.
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But who said anything about planning? It is random, you take what you get and make the best possible build out of it. That doesn't have anything to do with some skills being strong and harder to get, you will still get them if you got the chance.
Also, there is always memory mentor if you screwed up something, or didn't get the skill/perk you were hoping to get, but picked some skill because of it.
And in the end it is not all about balance, it was fun that you had to combo some skills to get some perks(at least you would try if you get the chance, you won't plan that from the start of the game) instead of mindlessly picking skills.
Oh and by the way, I know that your triple flaming Ballista was just an example, but that thing was superior in the mid and late game, not early game. It scaled perfectly with improving War Machines and it scaled with your knowledge. Majority of those harder to get skills weren't really good in the early game, and you couldn't rush them because you just won't get all the skills and perks you need one after another in the early game... Most of them are great after 15th level or so.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 22, 2014 04:26 PM |
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RMZ1989 said:
But who said anything about planning? It is random, you take what you get and make the best possible build out of it. That doesn't have anything to do with some skills being strong and harder to get, you will still get them if you got the chance.
You won't, if you won't also get the proper prerequisites. Attack skill for eg. has perks: "archery", "battle frenzy", "tactics". Those are visible to you in game. Also those don't require any other perk to get. All you need is attack. There is also "second layer" in which, amongst other things you see "flaming arrows". Now flaming arrows is useless if you don't have a balista. Thus you have to "plan". You have to choose to take archery for eg., even if some other perk might seem more attractive to you at that point, since you know it will lead to flaming arrows, which is awsome. I know tripple balista isn't the best example, since it's too simplistic .... and also i forgot a bit of H5 - didn't play it for some time. So here is better example of planning:
Example 2  : Let's say im Knight. Let's say I already have Attack skill. And i just leveled up and get offered 2 perks: Battle frenzy and Benediction. from personal standpoint I see battle frenzy is not very good. So i don't pick it up. I will wait for Tactics to show up. (and i know they can, by right clicking on attack skill). Why do I think Battle frenzy isn't good? Because i didn't plan. The only reason for taking battle frenzy is if you know in advance that, after you take it, it will lead to retribution and power of speed. So I plan: First i will get battle frenzy, and then power of speed. I took it because i PLAN(!) on getting power of speed in the future. If i don't, battle frenzy is useless.
And let's return now to our "flaming balista" example: Let's say I got Attack skill now, and I also have archery. These are only skills that I possess. Now I get offered Flaming arrows. Will i take it? If I don't PLAN on using war machines in the future ... NO. The only reason to have flaming arrows is if I intend to use balista. And if I don't get war machines also, I might be better off with some other perk /skill. Let's say ... Tactics. And if I do choose that skill, then I'm practicaly OBLIGED to take war machines. In fact, this is now my "plan". To get war machines and triple ballista.
Now i know those 2 examples aren't the best, but you get the idea. ANY perk that has ANY cross-skill requierment or prerequired perk needs planning in advance. That is bacause, you take the requierments IN ORDER to get the desired perk. You don't get Battle frenzy, because you think it's awsome, but you get it in order to get retribution for eg. Some perks - like Preperation, require even more planning, and ultimates are IMPOSSIBLE to get witouth planning.
RMZ1989 said:
Oh and by the way, I know that your triple flaming Ballista was just an example, but that thing was superior in the mid and late game, not early game. It scaled perfectly with improving War Machines and it scaled with your knowledge. Majority of those harder to get skills weren't really good in the early game, and you couldn't rush them because you just won't get all the skills and perks you need one after another in the early game... Most of them are great after 15th level or so.
Yes it is true i forgot a bit about the game, and yes it was just example. But it didn't scale with knowlege at all. And If you get offered War machines on first or even second level up, it was reasonable to expect to have it prior to level 10. On some games I got it as early as level 7 or 8. So it's more Early/mid game thing. Late game it wasn't OP at all.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted December 22, 2014 05:14 PM |
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Edited by RMZ1989 at 17:15, 22 Dec 2014.
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
You won't, if you won't also get the proper prerequisites. Attack skill for eg. has perks: "archery", "battle frenzy", "tactics". Those are visible to you in game. Also those don't require any other perk to get. All you need is attack. There is also "second layer" in which, amongst other things you see "flaming arrows". Now flaming arrows is useless if you don't have a balista. Thus you have to "plan". You have to choose to take archery for eg., even if some other perk might seem more attractive to you at that point, since you know it will lead to flaming arrows, which is awsome. I know tripple balista isn't the best example, since it's too simplistic .... and also i forgot a bit of H5 - didn't play it for some time. So here is better example of planning:
Example 2 : Let's say im Knight. Let's say I already have Attack skill. And i just leveled up and get offered 2 perks: Battle frenzy and Benediction. from personal standpoint I see battle frenzy is not very good. So i don't pick it up. I will wait for Tactics to show up. (and i know they can, by right clicking on attack skill). Why do I think Battle frenzy isn't good? Because i didn't plan. The only reason for taking battle frenzy is if you know in advance that, after you take it, it will lead to retribution and power of speed. So I plan: First i will get battle frenzy, and then power of speed. I took it because i PLAN(!) on getting power of speed in the future. If i don't, battle frenzy is useless.
Battle Frenzy is never useless, it is great when you have a ton of small units. But even with that example I understand what you are saying, but my point still stands, I won't plan to get Triple Ballista.
Quote:
And let's return now to our "flaming balista" example: Let's say I got Attack skill now, and I also have archery. These are only skills that I possess. Now I get offered Flaming arrows. Will i take it? If I don't PLAN on using war machines in the future ... NO. The only reason to have flaming arrows is if I intend to use balista. And if I don't get war machines also, I might be better off with some other perk /skill. Let's say ... Tactics. And if I do choose that skill, then I'm practicaly OBLIGED to take war machines. In fact, this is now my "plan". To get war machines and triple ballista.
Now i know those 2 examples aren't the best, but you get the idea. ANY perk that has ANY cross-skill requierment or prerequired perk needs planning in advance. That is bacause, you take the requierments IN ORDER to get the desired perk. You don't get Battle frenzy, because you think it's awsome, but you get it in order to get retribution for eg. Some perks - like Preperation, require even more planning, and ultimates are IMPOSSIBLE to get witouth planning.
It doesn't necessarily needs planning, that is all I am saying. If you are given a chance to pick something that will be useful only if you pick something else after it, you need to know what are the chances of you getting that skill. If I get Flaming Arrows, while I didn't pick up War Machines at all, I will of course skip it, but if I got War Machines already(basic/advanced/expert it doesn't matter), I will probably go for it because I know that chances of getting Ballista and then triple Ballista after it are quite good. And even if I don't get triple Ballista, Flaming Arrows are still great for your normal controlled Ballista, you didn't waste anything there by picking it, but it could be better.
What I am talking about planning is that I won't start the game and say "hey, I will go for Triple Ballista with Flaming Arrows this game, and I will wait for both of them to pop up so I could pick them", or if I get the chance to get Flaming Arrows, I won't pick it just because I plan to pick War Machines when I get the chance(because I might not get the chance at all).
Quote:
Yes it is true i forgot a bit about the game, and yes it was just example. But it didn't scale with knowlege at all. And If you get offered War machines on first or even second level up, it was reasonable to expect to have it prior to level 10. On some games I got it as early as level 7 or 8. So it's more Early/mid game thing. Late game it wasn't OP at all.
Well, it is hard to argue with you about some things that you have forgot. :/
Old thread: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=22190
Reading it, you will know that Ballista gets a lot of damage from your attack and from your knowledge. Now, I didn't say that it was OP in the late game, but it was definitely better in the mid/late game when your Ballista did a ton of damage because of high attack + knowledge while also ignored defense from opponents because of Flaming Arrows(and if I recall correctly it was 100% defense in 3.0 patch, but it was nerfed in patch 3.1 and there was 50% and it was still strong, but don't quote me on this) than in the early game where you barely could pick all of the right skills for it plus had enough of attack + knowledge to make it worth the "cost".
I mean, that is pretty much the reason they have nerfed it in 3.1, it was a bit too good.
I remember some of my games where I had like 20+ Knowledge(and this wasn't so hard, and was quite easy to get with Academy) where Ballista would take like ~70-100 Skeletons per shot or something like that, while it had triple shot which means it could easily kill like 300 Skeletons. From my experience it couldn't be nearly as effective in the early game.
That being said, I played Heroes 5 the most out of all Heroes games, but I still haven't played it and experimented with it as much as guys here from these forums, like Elvin and others, so they might want to add something to this.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 22, 2014 05:42 PM |
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There is no way to have both a RANDOM skill/ability system and a RANDOM mage guild spell system with 7 magic schools.
There is also no way to limit schools in a mage guild in a satisfactory way that would not be against lore (which would be silly, because 7 schools are there because of the lore in the first place) and no fun (that part was no fun in HoMM 5 either: not enough spells, always the same magic builds).
Now keep in mind that HoMM 5 offered just ONE HERO TYPE per faction. ONE. So they could tailor everything for one hero, faction-wise.
With more than one hero type this will be difficult: how would a Necro NOT be a spellcaster par excellence and why would they be limited in their magic choices (except for Light Magic)?
So: why would the magic heroes struggle with getting everything together, while the Might heroes can just pick skill-ability-skill-ability?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 22, 2014 06:20 PM |
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Elvin said:
Of course, H5 only has 4 magic schools of which two were the more common while H7 not only increases the amount of schools but doesn't seem to place any restrictions either. It is likely that aside from the one favoured school of the faction, the rest will be promoted equally which could clutter the level up choices quite a bit.
if I'm not mistaken, H6 had a system where you would gain more or less blood or tears depending on spells used.
there could be a similar system in H7, where the more you use certain spells, the bigger your chances of being proposed the corresponding magic school or perk is.
for example, the more you use curse, the bigger your chances of learning dark magic and master of curses are.
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted December 22, 2014 06:22 PM |
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Please, remember that there 2 classes of Heroes for all factions this time around.
Voted Other.
Reasons:1. The Might Hero should be allowed to force itself at learning totally new secondary skills such as sorcery and tertiary skills such as magic protection while such hero will, by force of its primary skills, learn its own attack and defence skills as battle experience builds up.
2. The Magic Hero should be allowed to force itself at learning totally new secondary skills such as Attack and Defence and tertiary skills such as archery and melee resilience while such hero will, by force of its primary skills, learn its own spell-power and intelligence(mana pool growth) as magical spells are used throughout battle experience builds up.
So, after 15 to 20 battles, your hero should be highly skilled in both magic use and the art of fighting onto any possible battlefield.
That's how I deal with the deficiencies of the heroes of each specific factions within Heroes 5:T.o.T.E.
This time around, in Heroes 7, each faction will have the choice to choose which class of heroes the player prefers to deal with. Example: The Wizards faction can start with a Might Hero that will be quite comfy at learning the art of spell casting and overall sorcery while continuing to grow in its fighting natural primary skills.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted December 22, 2014 06:29 PM |
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Fauch said:
if I'm not mistaken, H6 had a system where you would gain more or less blood or tears depending on spells used.
there could be a similar system in H7, where the more you use certain spells, the bigger your chances of being proposed the corresponding magic school or perk is.
for example, the more you use curse, the bigger your chances of learning dark magic and master of curses are.
That would be very dependant of the spells you begin with (in the Magic Guild), which kind of kills its purpouse, doesn't it?
Let's say you want your knight to develop Light, and of the first level spells offered on the MG, the most useful early on is a curse, your hero would develop to Dark, but that's not what you want
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