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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Random Skill System Implementation
Thread: Random Skill System Implementation This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 22, 2014 06:44 PM

that was always the case, no? you have to adapt to your magic guild. but at least, even if you don't get what you want, you still have a chance to make the best out of it.

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Zombi_Wizzard
Zombi_Wizzard


Famous Hero
posted December 22, 2014 06:54 PM
Edited by Zombi_Wizzard at 18:56, 22 Dec 2014.

RMZ1989 said:
If you are given a chance to pick something that will be useful only if you pick something else after it, you need to know what are the chances of you getting that skill. If I get Flaming Arrows, while I didn't pick up War Machines at all, I will of course skip it, but if I got War Machines already(basic/advanced/expert it doesn't matter), I will probably go for it because I know that chances of getting Ballista and then triple Ballista after it are quite good.

Which is planning. Sure it's not exactly long term or intricate planning, but it is planning non the less. In your case - you pick up Flaming arrows because (and i quote you): "chances of getting Ballista and then triple Ballista after it are quite good."

Now try to immagine if skills of H5 were completly random. Would you still even have a chance of getting some perks? Sure but you wouldn't bet on it. But it wasn't completly random at all. And that was what made the system managable. It gives you "some" power over hero building, but not all of it.

Sure flaming arrows and triple ballista aren't best examples, like i said, and that's because they are not cross-skill perks.
But like i said, it's been long time since i last played this game, and I didn't remember better examples right away.
Example of such perk is (if you are Knight), Preperation. Which is very hard to get if you don't plan what skills you will get in advance. If I don't plan ... then Preparation will be highly unlikely to ever even show up. If i don't know which skills + perks lead to it, it's not very likely, that I will just by sheer coincidence choose the right combination.

Game of H5 when looking at Hero building was a lot like a game of Poker. It's a game of probability. You bet on your hand based on what probability is to get certain combination. If probability to get flush is quite high, you will raise the bet, if not, you will not.

But I am not poker guy ... In fact i hate poker. Much more i enjoy chess. Sure in both games there is strategy - but mentality behind it is diferent.

H5 skill system was good - no doubt about it - but it would benefit if it would be non random. Or the best case: random skills and non random perks. H6 skills had no requierments other than level, and THAT is the reason that it would be better to have them randomized.


RMZ1989 said:
Well, it is hard to argue with you about some things that you have forgot. :/

True I apologize - you are correct - it was knowledge dependant. But i belive this even further proves my point.
I mean - I never said that I planed on what skills i want at the begining of the game (with possible exception of ultimate, since you basicly can't get it otherwise), since it would be ludicrous to do so. But you do require some reasoning to what skills you will pick. If you just pick blindly, in regard to what's the best in current situation, and not put any taught in what your hero will be like in couple of levels, you wouldn't even get the chance to get a lot of (very good) perks. And imo that's not right aproach.
If skills are random, there should be no "planning ahead". Much like in H3 realy. In other words - you wouldn't pick "pathfinding" just because there is a chance to get warpath ... no. The ONLY reason to pick pathfinding is because the terain is rough on a given map. Warpath would be completly independent perk on the same skill.

So in example for preparation perk: It wouldn't require all those other perks but instead just skill: defence and maybe hero level ... let's say 10. And that's it.

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted December 22, 2014 07:13 PM

For me the most important part is the skills are actually useful. Getting Preparation felt indeed like your Hero just leveled up, or getting that Mass Haste. In order to get this feeling some skills must be more than "+5% damage". (Even in that case of such skills they can me made interesting like the Chilling Bones that gave cold damage in addition to your damage - your army felt indeed enhanced)

So some prequisites are good, but one should just see them while leveling up. Not that hard to implement imho... I dunno what solution is best for the abundance of 7 magic schools, but overall the option of choosing to either improve your skills or abilities sounds good. It should please the casual players and the more competitive ones too, as you would have more say in what your build will look like in the end but still keeping the leveling exciting.
____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor

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andy_dandy
andy_dandy


Adventuring Hero
posted December 22, 2014 07:28 PM
Edited by andy_dandy at 19:37, 22 Dec 2014.

I voted other. I just want the system of 3 choices back, and that each choice is binding you to that branch/category. The amount of possible skill categories per hero must also be limited to harden the choice, and reward specialisation.

I want a H3/H4-like system, and no hocus pocus fancy ideas, and with no huger bonuses per skill level then those games had.

I'm open for a special bonus if a hero completes 2 or 3 skill-categories in a special combo, much like some of the special traits you could acchieve in H4. Would be cool.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 22, 2014 07:36 PM

H4 was actually different, since you basically knew what you would get, based on the heroes you chose, and you would just buy all the heroes with the skills you need, instead of hoping a single hero would learn them all.

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andy_dandy
andy_dandy


Adventuring Hero
posted December 22, 2014 07:40 PM
Edited by andy_dandy at 19:50, 22 Dec 2014.

Fauch said:
H4 was actually different, since you basically knew what you would get, based on the heroes you chose, and you would just buy all the heroes with the skills you need, instead of hoping a single hero would learn them all.


You could only be certain to get choices for that herotype's main skill-category, and maybe also the combat skill. But then again you could teach the hero those other basic skills you wanted it to build further upon in different learning sites. I really liked this twist to it, and the rich amount of different hero types that game had (H4).

Anyways; 3 choices per skill level choice, and every skill level belonging to a category that then is locked for that hero, is what Heroes games are all about for me. Hopefully it will be based arround that principle.

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castiel_789
castiel_789


Adventuring Hero
posted December 22, 2014 10:00 PM
Edited by castiel_789 at 02:11, 23 Dec 2014.

In order 2-1-3 but I chose other

I had some thought about the H5 system somewhere sometime. Something like this :

On level up :      1           2
                    5 6           7

1 & 6 Skills ; 2 & 7 abilities ; 5 one free re-roll of 6 before picking (cannot return to first skill that appeared in 6)

If it look like a skill wheel, back H5 I remember you could integrate it in the game. They should have something similar maybe have just one skill/abil row showing up and arrow to turn it.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted December 22, 2014 10:23 PM

JollyJoker said:
So: why would the magic heroes struggle with getting everything together, while the Might heroes can just pick skill-ability-skill-ability?

That is indeed problematic.
What do you think about something like that :

On level up, you get to choose between the following options :

- Might oriented skill
- Magic oriented skill
- Might oriented ability
- Magic oriented ability

The skilltree would take into consideration your previous choices and influence the odds while going further in the game.


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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 22, 2014 10:38 PM

I meant something else.
The magic hero is inferior due to primary stats.
So somehow magic hero must make up with their advantage in magic stats.
How is THAT going to happen, when you get skills AND spells at random?

I mean, HoMM 5's magic skill abilities are a lot about making certain spells better. How are you supposed to get those? And what if your guild isn't delivering the spells for the skills you have good probabilities to get?
And NOW think about the might heroes and the non-problem this is, while they start superior.

There's a reason HoMM 5 has only ONE hero type per faction.

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Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted December 22, 2014 10:44 PM
Edited by Gryphs at 22:46, 22 Dec 2014.

I imagine that your factions favored magic skills(like light for Haven)will always be present in your factions mages guild.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted December 22, 2014 10:45 PM
Edited by Galaad at 22:46, 22 Dec 2014.

@JJ :
Maybe all Magic Heroes could have Wisdom by default, and make high level spells inaccessible by Might Heroes ?
About spell learning, I guess that would more depend on the spells themselves ? I mean, if they are all of same efficiency even if different and making you aim to a different gameplay ?
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Zombi_Wizzard
Zombi_Wizzard


Famous Hero
posted December 22, 2014 10:52 PM

JollyJoker: You know what I think? I think the developers didn't think about that problem, nor the things what i was talking about ... and that's because decisions on skill-wheel and 7 magic schools were made prior to decision on random skills.
It isn't much of a problem if skills aren't random, since you can just select whatever is apropriate depending on spells you have in magic guild.

In other words - they just added an option to roll automatic die on skills, while the game is made with non-random skills in mind. And frankly - if skills are not random 7 magic schools are a benefit rather than a hinderance, because it makes for more replayability.

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Pawek_13
Pawek_13


Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
posted December 22, 2014 11:48 PM

Galaad said:
@JJ :
Maybe all Magic Heroes could have Wisdom by default, and make high level spells inaccessible by Might Heroes?

In Heroes VI level 3 spells were inaccessible for Might Heroes and to be honest, I didn't like it at all. Some factions rely on magic (like Necropolis) and cutting off a possibility to learn good spells by their Might heroes would somehow impair them. Of course, Might Heroes should still have access to high-level spells but, obviously, it shouldn't be as easy as for Magic heroes.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted December 23, 2014 01:23 AM

JollyJoker said:
So: why would the magic heroes struggle with getting everything together, while the Might heroes can just pick skill-ability-skill-ability?


The main problem I see is that the Might Hero implicitely bolsters his troops a lot more than a Magic Hero. Main Hero stats of Attack and Defense are automatically applied to the troops under that Hero's command. Let's get rid of that notion altogether and have the Might Hero work for it, just like the Magic Hero. Instead of spending time in an Arcane Library, a Might Hero needs to spend time on the training grounds and in the arena, as well as getting acquainted with battle tactics of large-scale battlefields. Even if Magic Heroes have a lot of actives (spells), I am fine with Might Heroes getting more of them in passive form (troop bolstering). But point in fact is that the development of the Might Hero and how he implicitely attributes his stats to his troops has been skewing the power difference between Might and Magic Heroes throughout the series. I am all for not automatically attributing a Hero's Attack and Defense to the troops he leads, but require skills and talents to do so. Flesh out a valid Might skill tree that can stand toe to toe with a Magic skill tree.

Anyway, on the topic of Ultimate skills, I've stated before that I would like a system with multiple Ultimate skills, unique per faction. I've realised that what I'm actually gunning for are Synergy skills: skills that somehow work with the synergy among the chosen skills, in light of the faction of the Hero (note that if cross-faction recruitment is possible, the Hero should maintain his own original faction Ultimate/Synergy skillset).

Taking Haven for an example, you could have for instance these four different Heroes:
- The Warlord: he doesn't do Magic skills, but instead focusses on offensive Might skills like Tactics, Archery and Artillery;
- The Paladin: he plays somewhat defensively, using Light Magic to bolster the troops under his command;
- The Inquisitor: he plays offensively, making extensive use of Light Magic to punish enemy troops. His own troops add to the carnage, but are otherwise not bolstered nearly as much;
- The Priest: like the Paladin this Hero plays somewhat defensively, but rather than using Might skills to provide protection and healing, this Hero uses Light Magic to accomplish that;

Four different Hero builds based off of two base types (Might Hero and Magic Hero), who will likely have a different set of skills when they're maturing. Each should get access to different ultimate/synergy skills, depending on both their chosen skills as well as being aimed at the faction's forte; in the case of Haven, the Ultimate/Synergy skills should have something to do with Morale, Light Magic and Discipline among the troops.

Other factions play completely differently, having their own set of skills to accomplish their goals. And it's very good possible that a set of skills that yield an ultimate/synergy skill for one faction, yield nothing for any other faction, or maybe it yields something for one or two others. And even if it yields an ultimate/synergy, the details may be different. A Necropolis Might Hero who plays offensively may have the same set as skills as the Haven Might Hero, but his ultimate/synergy probably focusses on death and destruction, rather than troop combinations.

Overall, though, Ultimate skills shouldn't be a goal in and of itself; it should come naturally because the set of skills needed to get it make sense for that Hero type and playstyle. By making it unique per faction, aiming it at the faction's strong points, you also set the factions apart, something that may be very much needed if armies tend to play the same otherwise, in general - this problem was something that was raised as a complaint during the faction lineup votings, in any case.

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castiel_789
castiel_789


Adventuring Hero
posted December 23, 2014 02:58 AM

The percentage of getting a skill by either one could be used to make the differentiation coupled with a mismatch in abilities between might and magic.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted December 23, 2014 10:17 AM
Edited by MattII at 09:55, 24 Dec 2014.

And just to throw in some random ideas I've had:
* Prevent the learning of new skills on level-up, but to allow heroes to teach each other skills, and to include several more skill-learning locations, including a few that changed randomly every week or month.
* The chances of a hero learning any particular new skill on level-up are a composite of his/her base chances of learning said skill, and a formula of her existing skills (expertise in one magic school makes it slightly more likely that another magic school will pop up compared to other, while a combat skill makes it more likely a combat skill will come up).

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 24, 2014 02:48 PM
Edited by Stevie at 14:55, 24 Dec 2014.

JollyJoker said:
I meant something else.
The magic hero is inferior due to primary stats.
So somehow magic hero must make up with their advantage in magic stats.
How is THAT going to happen, when you get skills AND spells at random?

I mean, HoMM 5's magic skill abilities are a lot about making certain spells better. How are you supposed to get those? And what if your guild isn't delivering the spells for the skills you have good probabilities to get?
And NOW think about the might heroes and the non-problem this is, while they start superior.

There's a reason HoMM 5 has only ONE hero type per faction.


Objections to which I have an irrefutable answer: that's what the community wants Heroes 3 and 5 had the same "issues" and in spite of that we still liked them a lot. And apparently the system of Heroes 6 which didn't have these problems was viewed as a disaster. So why is that?

A might hero is limited in his approach which in the most cases is resumed to buffing his army's stats. Compared to that, the magic hero has a clear advantage, manipulating more than simply stats but a lot of mechanics as well. Have a might hero do anything similar to a berserk spell. Impossible! Have a magic hero do anything similar to getting more stats. Cast the appropriate spell! In fact, even at stats a magic hero would be way superior given the right spells. How much attack and defense could you possibly have at level 15, 10 each? With my 10 spellpower and 10 wisdom I'd buff my troops to exceed that difference one way or another. Maybe my Strength spell won't give me +10 attack to all creatures, but I can cast way more spells than just that. I could block you with a summon, or incapacitate your creatures, or increase other attributes like speed/initiative while decreasing yours as well with debuffs! TONS of ways to go about it which a might hero doesn't have.

The fact that things are random comes as a balancing factor imo. Sure, maybe random skills is too much for you, then turn it off! Then the only random thing left would be the drop of spells in the magic guild. Which is not even completely random, but controlled, as explained by the devs mainly in their demo session. There will be preferred magic schools like Light for Haven, meaning at least one light spell per magic guild level. And hated schools like Dark for Haven, meaning no dark spells in the magic guild at all. Add to that the fact that they were deciding on implementing spell specializations in the guild (possibly something like Heroes 4) to precisely avoid being screwed by the random factor. You're already looking at a different picture. (Demo session link, mage guilds at 51:34)



On the topic of Ultimate skills, I am opposed to such a system as seen with Heroes 5. Not only it forces you onto a certain skill path but it's not even relevant to the early-middle game, and sometimes even less in the late game! A lot of effort for something useless for the most part, and the only way to compensate for that is by having ridiculously good ultimates which would probably ruin any kind of idea of balance.

No, what I would like is something less concentrated on just one very powerful skill or perk. A system in which your choices of skills and perks are in essence "the ultimate skill". A more accurate word to describe this would be combos or skills/perks synergy. These would have prerequisites from two or maximum three skills but not more, because the idea is to ensure that you'd get a combo as early as possible. Say you're a Sanctuary Magic hero and you want to cripple the enemy's movement by freezing the ground with a global battleground perk from your Water magic skill, and then push his creatures back with a level 4 Tsunami spell, then you should be able to do that efficiently at around level 10 if you get all the skills and perks. After that you'd go for another skill path to ensure another efficient tactic like that, so that if the enemy is resistant to movement impairing effects you'd always have another option.

A system like that would be much better than the Heroes 5 one. Not just one skill as an ultimate ability, but more like a strategy as an ultimate ability! A strategy composed of skills and perks that work in synergy with each other and with all your faction and hero class has to offer. The more tactical approaches a skillwheel gives you, the more competitive the game is and the more replayability increases. If heroes can have a decent combat strategy at around level 10, then players would even start considering secondary heroes again.

A strategy should not be contained by a high level Ultimate ability but by the choices of the player in his heroes' skill builds.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted December 24, 2014 04:56 PM

So, basically what I already wrote above .

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 24, 2014 06:55 PM

Erm.. yea Well, ain't that the best way to go? A system in which each hero class from each faction has a different skillwheel, especially at a perk level. Like, as a designer I would set it as a goal to have at least three 3rd level perks as defining for each skillwheel. These kind of perks would be completely unique to those classes, outlining their specific strategy.

I don't think I'm asking for anything more than what should already be obvious.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted December 24, 2014 11:25 PM

Agreed. The one thing I'm not sure on is the number of skills required to get a synergy skill. It also somewhat depends on the total number of skills a Hero can acquire. Do we already know that number? I can't recall.

Basically, it revolves around the question on whether or not you should be able to reach two such synergy skills on the same Hero. Personally, I'd say no.

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