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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Why dont they just do 2D
Thread: Why dont they just do 2D This thread is 13 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 · NEXT»
okrane
okrane


Famous Hero
posted December 24, 2014 10:14 PM

Why dont they just do 2D

I mean seriously, all this crap about Heroes in 3D brings nothing to the table.

2D makes it easier to produce the game,
easier for map makers to quickly build new maps
easier to understand what's going on and
the feel of a strategy game...

before it's too late...

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted December 25, 2014 12:24 AM
Edited by Galaad at 00:29, 25 Dec 2014.

I agree that, with actual possibilities, Heroes of Might and Magic could be wonderful in 2D. Thinking of Trine 2's atmosphere for instance.
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He JVC taught us how to use skeletons. -Ghost

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kiryu133
kiryu133

Hero of Order
Highly illogical
posted December 25, 2014 01:04 AM

several reasons, really, most important that it's easier to sell to the average consumer. i agree that 2d fits the series more as ever since the jump to 3d everything has felt so... small. however most casual consumers probably won't be to interested in a game with 2d graphics so to ubisoft, that's a no-no.

of course i don't actually have any idea, however this makes sense to me.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted December 25, 2014 01:50 AM

The 3D is tricky but supported by better tools. Actually is a bit like text corrector, people don't need anymore to learn writing, the stuff gets fixed while you type. It has good sides, but in the long term, can lead to lower standards.

So this is 3D too.

You don't have to wonder about interface or creatures readability, about towns perspective, about the artistic dimension, like a painting. The user can rotate and zoom into every creature butt, hence it doesn't really matter if they are well designed to support global battle view, such as in H2/3 for instance.

And this is why each time I watch some H5 (or other 3D similar games) battles or game-play, I feel nauseated, so much the guy overuses his zoom, and can't stop rotating, he is like on drugs. At regular battle view, creatures from H5 are so bad designed and such indistinguishable that it is almost surprising people can still plan strategies and finish games.
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Era II mods and utilities

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Ghost
Ghost


Supreme Hero
Therefore I am
posted December 25, 2014 02:33 AM

And we are 2D! Aren't like the other? You know the future use 2D yet
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Fight MWMs - stand teach

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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted December 25, 2014 05:51 AM

Well, I've been arguing this for a decade.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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Orzie
Orzie


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Reinventing the Steel
posted December 25, 2014 06:05 AM


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Zombi_Wizzard
Zombi_Wizzard


Famous Hero
posted December 25, 2014 08:53 AM

If they make it into 2D game.... yes, it's easier to produce; yes, it does cost a lot less resourcess; yes it makes it playable on cellphone and mobile devices; yes, it does not require any serious PC; yes it can be downloded for 10$ on steam ....

But that is NOT what developers are clearly after is it? They want it to compete with other modern "triple-A" titles on the market. You know ... the likes of Total War, Starcraft, Age of Wonders, Civilization ....

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kiryu133
kiryu133

Hero of Order
Highly illogical
posted December 25, 2014 10:39 AM

Zombi_Wizzard said:
stuff


wihich would be absolutely fine If Heroes had the same level of recognition, but it most definitely does not. Ubisoft really are shooting themselves in the foot with this kind of attitude as heroes will never reach that point if they keep going like they do now...

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Pawek_13
Pawek_13


Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
posted December 25, 2014 11:02 AM
Edited by Pawek_13 at 11:03, 25 Dec 2014.

Salamandre said:
And this is why each time I watch some H5 (or other 3D similar games) battles or game-play, I feel nauseated, so much the guy overuses his zoom, and can't stop rotating, he is like on drugs. At regular battle view, creatures from H5 are so bad designed and such indistinguishable that it is almost surprising people can still plan strategies and finish games.

Although I generally think that implementation of 3D is a good idea for me, Heroes V overused it and made maps unclear. You have to rotate the map constantly to ensure that you have collected everything possible on the map. In Heroes VI, thankfully, this issue was fixed and there was no need for constant rotation and I hope the same remains for Heroes VII.
@okrane:
Referring to the origin of the topic - if there was to be 2D perspective in Heroes game, do you want creatures to be 3D renders in 2D game (like Heroes III), or maybe all game should have 2D sprites (like Heroes II), or maybe would you prefer the game to be hand-drawn (like Rayman Origins/Legends)? There are quite many possibilities. Which one would you choose?

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okrane
okrane


Famous Hero
posted December 25, 2014 12:13 PM

Pawek_13 said:
Salamandre said:
And this is why each time I watch some H5 (or other 3D similar games) battles or game-play, I feel nauseated, so much the guy overuses his zoom, and can't stop rotating, he is like on drugs. At regular battle view, creatures from H5 are so bad designed and such indistinguishable that it is almost surprising people can still plan strategies and finish games.

Although I generally think that implementation of 3D is a good idea for me, Heroes V overused it and made maps unclear. You have to rotate the map constantly to ensure that you have collected everything possible on the map. In Heroes VI, thankfully, this issue was fixed and there was no need for constant rotation and I hope the same remains for Heroes VII.
@okrane:
Referring to the origin of the topic - if there was to be 2D perspective in Heroes game, do you want creatures to be 3D renders in 2D game (like Heroes III), or maybe all game should have 2D sprites (like Heroes II), or maybe would you prefer the game to be hand-drawn (like Rayman Origins/Legends)? There are quite many possibilities. Which one would you choose?


A high resolution version of Heroes 3 or 4 like graphics is enough for any heroes game.

I would rather they would focus on the depth of the strategy in the game.

we all know this won't happen though.

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Rakshasa92
Rakshasa92


Supreme Hero
posted December 25, 2014 12:46 PM

Yes please.

Cut the 3D stuff. Everything looks better in 2D.

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted December 25, 2014 01:11 PM

Certainly battles simply look much better in 2D than in 3D, that alone could be a reason to bring back 2D. Too bad 'anything' not in 3D is looked with bad eyes nowadays
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Zombi_Wizzard
Zombi_Wizzard


Famous Hero
posted December 25, 2014 02:50 PM

Well not everything that does not look 3D, is viewed as bad... far from it. There's been loads of great games that are 2D. Look them up on Steam...

It more has to do with the fact, that you can't realisticly expect to sell those games at full retail price of 50$ or 60$. Trine is a great game ...  I bought it for only 5$ on a Steam discount long time ago. Yes 20 years ago those games can be sold for 50$ ... but today? no chance in hell.

Second point is, you have to look at this from gaming industry's point of view. For over two decades, they have been trying to do 3D games. Why are Heroes games up to including HOMM4 2D? same reason every old strategy game has been 2D. Technology. 2D was not a design choice, but choice that was forced. And even so, if you look at perspective, and shadows, you can clearly see that it tries for 3D perspective. It trys to look as if tho it was 3D ... nod now they can finaly model it with polygons. Result? Every new strategy game has 3D graphics. Look at Starcraft, look at Warcraft, or Civilization, or Command & Conquer series ... list goes on and on. HOMM is part of the exact same trend.

And yet... if you would ask me several years ago if I had any hope that HOMM series would be transformed into 2D, I would say it would be possible. And the only way I envision such thing is if they embrace new buisness models of F2P games, such as that of Path of Exile or League of Legends. If(!) the model would be good like in these examples, and HOMM game would be played on portable devices ... maybe in browser even, it could be a worthy successor to previous games.

But If you would ask me now?

We have that now don't we? Yes we do. Might & Magic Heroes Online ... and guess what? It sucks. Badly. It's the product of greed rather than good design. I'll play a good F2P game like PoE any day, thank you very much! I don't see Ubi releasing another HOMM F2P game, except that is a good one. No. I don't expect them to release any good F2P game from any genre or serie that is even playable. I don't consider any "traditional" company, be it Ubi, EA or (yes) Blizzard to have even a will or desire to consider a F2P game as their main franchise game. At best those companies will produce games that are for marketing their other "serious" franchises. And you can see it is so. EA did it with Need for Speed, Blizzard is doing it with Hearthstone and Heroes of the Storm ... And Ubi is doing it with Might & Magic Heroes: Online.

And yet ... a lot of people are saying things like: "we just want game to be like HOMM3, but in HD textures..." Well great. You have that. It's called HOMM3 HD. And considering it was previously a free mod, and that it dosen't include all expansions, I personaly consider it also nothing more than marketing for their "main" title, which is M&M:H7 (a stupid title, that even to untrained one like me, seems to be gramaticaly wrong - even tho that in actuality it's not).

So there you go. Am I aganist 2D? NO!!! Do I think 3D can work well if properly implemented? YES!! Do I think Ubi will do future Heroes games in 2D? NO! and I would be shocked and surprised if it did.

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 25, 2014 02:59 PM
Edited by Stevie at 15:09, 25 Dec 2014.

I think 2,5D would be best. You don't really need 3D because it's not a necessity like it would be in a FPS game where you absolutely need to rotate the camera. What does rotating the view provide in Heroes? Nothing! It's not strategically relevant to the game. You could have drawn backgrounds for an increased fantasy atmosphere effect which is what the game lacks imo. The only ones that really need to be 3D are the creatures because they would have to turn on the battlefield.

But it's 3D and we can't do anything about it, not at this point. It could work, but I think drawn art is aesthetically much better.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted December 25, 2014 04:54 PM

Most people don't even know that h2 was the last pure 2d game from the series. H3 had 3d rendered models converted in a 2d environment Also why people think that 2d is easier than 3d? For example, in order to do a creature in 3d you need to make the model and add articulation points then make a sequence of movements, while for a 2d sprite you need to draw all frames for every angle you need, that means more work.

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orzie
orzie


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Reinventing the Steel
posted December 25, 2014 05:10 PM

Heroes 2 has its cutscenes, townscreens and main menu also rendered from 3D scenes

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 25, 2014 05:36 PM
Edited by Stevie at 17:37, 25 Dec 2014.

LizardWarrior said:
Also why people think that 2d is easier than 3d? For example, in order to do a creature in 3d you need to make the model and add articulation points then make a sequence of movements, while for a 2d sprite you need to draw all frames for every angle you need, that means more work.


Creating a 3D model is ALWAYS more expensive and harder than creating a drawing. But animating a 3D model is ALWAYS cheaper and easier than animating 2D because you simply have to rotate the camera whereas in 2D you have to draw all the angles by hand. It's probably the only reason why they didn't go for it, a fully animated 2D Heroes would cost a ton of money and require a lot more work. And it's not that popular to have in an AAA title by today's standards. Lame.

Marketing completely ruined games. Love of money, root of all evil.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted December 25, 2014 06:02 PM

Quote:
Why dont they just do 2D


they just did. people are still hating.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted December 25, 2014 06:25 PM

Stevie said:
Creating a 3D model is ALWAYS more expensive and harder than creating a drawing. But animating a 3D model is ALWAYS cheaper and easier than animating 2D because you simply have to rotate the camera whereas in 2D you have to draw all the angles by hand. It's probably the only reason why they didn't go for it, a fully animated 2D Heroes would cost a ton of money and require a lot more work.
Unless you do it by taking a 3D animation and fixing the camera at one angle.

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