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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 27, 2014 02:34 AM |
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Galaad said:
@Salamandre : I precisely don't like the screenshot of H3 you posted because of the creature sizes.
uh sorry. It is from a sod mod made by some guy who wanted realistic creatures sizes. I just took first google H3 screen it came, my bad. Indeed it looks weird.
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Era II mods and utilities
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted December 27, 2014 02:39 AM |
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I was referring to the acknowledgement of the issues of color palette and its comparable importance.  They might or may not be of equal importance, depending on one's view, but I believe that one affects the other, which i stressed with my last post
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 27, 2014 02:42 AM |
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@Salamandre : No worries, i actually think it is nice it's in the thread.
@TDL : Okay thx for clarification 
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cliff_nest
Hired Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 04:11 AM |
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Trine 2 reminded me of another recent game made by UBI Child of light (2D adventure RPG). Does that mean 3D is a leading trend? I'm not quite sure about it. Maybe their just in a phase of gauging the impact of 2D has some use it other don't or some developer see it (and the variant) has a way of differentiation. 2D may not be so much wild has an idea I think in this case.
[url=http://download.gamezone.com/uploads/image/data/1163461/Child_of_Light_exploration.JPG]Pics 1[/url] [url=http://static9.cdn.ubi.com/resource/en-GB/game/childoflight/col/child_of_light_screenshot_fireball_127119.JPG]Pics 2[/url]
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 05:35 AM |
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I wouldn't suggest that. Making a game 2d instead of 3d doesn't mean it's gonna be better coded. Besides, army games are meant to be 3d.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 07:55 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 07:56, 27 Dec 2014.
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artu said:
But that is inevitable with 3D, in 2D map, objects and buildings are icons, their proportion to each other doesnt matter, a barrack and a castle can be close in size. That would look absurd and weird in 3D.
Not really, I mean it didn't look any worse in H5 than in H3.
artu said:
It's never one on one proportions, especially when it comes to the heroes, they are always huge in proportion to other objects. Yet, look at the size of the trees, the hero, the castle, the chest here:
And imagine it was as out of proportion as the one above and how absurd it would look on this one:
The trees are out of proportion to the castle, making the castle look ridiculously small.
kayna said:
I wouldn't suggest that. Making a game 2d instead of 3d doesn't mean it's gonna be better coded. Besides, army games are meant to be 3d.
This, oh so much this. I mean for the love of mike Ubish*t have even managed to screw up Tetris, yes, Tetris, the block dropping game that is now 30 years old. I mean, godsdamnit, how do you screw up a game that has been in production for 30 years?!
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 27, 2014 08:14 AM |
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Who says they are meant to be 3D? And keep in mind that my main focus is on the adventure map, but even if it wasn't,
MattII, you miss the point, the whole idea of 3D is that it looks more realistic, so there is a difference of degree to how out of proportion things will get. As I already stated, everything is never in perfect proportion to each other anyway, yet, 3D tries to keep it as realistic as possible, that's why it developed in the first place. Otherwise, on a monitor, visualizing a strategy is always easier with this:
rather than this:
This concept of 3D being superior to 2D by default is an overwhelmingly misguided conditioning. A monitor is not real life, 2D has many advantages over 3D and it can look wonderful if it's done artistically. You ignore every valid perk of 2D we present for the sake of a prejudice, nothing more.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 27, 2014 08:34 AM |
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted December 27, 2014 08:35 AM |
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We can all play that game:
This:
is in your oppinion better than,
this:
because its more visible?
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 27, 2014 08:37 AM |
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Yes ... coz Child of light is clearly a 50$ game ... wait (checks on Steam) ... no .. It's 15$ .. 9$ coz of a disscount.
I agree on one point. And that is, that golden age of this games was back in 2D era. It's not just graphics that's dated. There's hardly been any mayor inovation since H1. H4 tried to inovate, but fans complained. So did H6 ... but fans complained again. Now H6 did some changes which were just plain bad, and didn't advanced the serie at all, rather it rolled back, what good changes were introduced before. Series should die with H4. End of story. If it would, then it would have possibility to be brought back as a cheap 2D 10$ title.
But it didn't. Ubi brought it back as a full on serious title. And that suggest modern aproach. And that is 3D graphics. Luckily for the serie, it uses concept that has not appeared in many other titles.
Old fans (including me) ... im sorry ... but we should dissapear from this scene, and let now generation come. So Ubi will not be burdened by us anymore, and can develop game without looking for our approval. Only concern of developer should be: Is this game any good? And NOT how it resembles older titles. Coz trust me ... if the game is good I'll play it, even if game-play is totaly diferent than in classical Heroes games.
This tread is going in right direction tho. Game should not revert to 2D, just because last 2 games made clumsy use of 3D perspective. Instead, it should improve on it's 3D design. Civilization is 3D (was 2D before), Age of Wonders is 3D (was 2D), Erador is 3D, Total War is 3D ... and those games work well...
To suggest Heroes games are SO diferent that they simply CAN NOT work in 3D perspective is preposterous and simply not true!
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 27, 2014 08:38 AM |
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Fallacious example, dark whisperer.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted December 27, 2014 08:39 AM |
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And chessboard isnt?
BTW its same game called Chaos Reborn and its remake of ZX Spectrum game.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 27, 2014 08:42 AM |
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No. Chess 2D and 3D is the representation of the same game, under different perspectives, so one can see the difference. Beside, is the most ever famous game, so everyone can judge.
But then you take a crap 2D game, then compare with other modern 3D game. So is fallacious.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted December 27, 2014 08:44 AM |
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Its same game.
But when you compare black and white figures on black and white surface to Heroes battlefield its somehow justified?
And why did you call that first screenshot crap game. Are you judging it by graphic? Are you? 
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 27, 2014 08:51 AM |
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Well yes, from my player point of view. I need to focus my visual attention on creatures and the tactics to succeed. If a battle field has colour variations, is harder to concentrate.
To give an example, I used to play a lot civilization 2 and 3. Some games were so addicting that I could pass several hours without moving away. Now I play Civilization 5 and every hour I have to take a pause, my eyes are screwed, my hand is painful. Every time I have to move a creature, I need to: zoom in, scroll, click, zoom back. The map details are so various now that I need to zoom or choose different angle to see if passable or not. And so on.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 27, 2014 09:17 AM |
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Edited by artu at 09:21, 27 Dec 2014.
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Why dont you link a screenshot of Pong, Dark Whisperer! It's a fallacious example because I didnt link a crappy 3D chess board to twist the facts, it was very plain and tasteful but 2D view has still advantages over it. A game's playibility trumps over realism in graphics. You can even say a game has its own reality. Now, let me tell it this way, let's assume they made Heroes 10 and they made it with awesome graphics like this: You can switch between 2D adventure map and 3D adventure map. You know what would happen, after admiring the 3D graphics for a week or so, everyone would start to navigate in 2D map. Because, that type of game has more playability on a 2D map. They made 3D Tetris, too, unlike classical Tetris, it was just a fad. "Shiny" ages real fast, it really doesnt matter much in terms of enjoying a game.
Also, you completely ignore everything that has been presented about bigger and bugless random maps. As of now, they cant make sufficient map generators on 3D, H5's random maps were like bathrooms compared to H3's. And if you chose big map with many AI, they constantly crashed.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted December 27, 2014 09:23 AM |
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Ok, that makes it clearer why you prefer 2D. Its natural to dislike feature if it makes you strain eyes or hand.
But I never had those problems. 3D never interfered my gameplay or made it worse or more tedious especially when I'm playing TBS and don't have to react instantly.
I was able to recognize units and obstacles right away and never had to rotate or zoom battlefield. On adventure map I sometimes miss resource or building but no more then in Heroes III.
EDIT:
About map editor:
I just went to maps4heroes and I can see over 700 community made maps for Heroes V. Based on that I wouldn't say that Heroes V map maker is complete garbage. Bugs and crashes has nothing to do with 3D enviroment its just poor coding.
I've hoped that we have risen beyond comparing Heroes with Chess, Tetris and side scrolling platformers. Better find TBS that was executed better in 2D than in 3D.
I know its convenient for you as user to make maps in simpler map maker or to modify 2D spites in photoshop then to fiddle with textures or meshes but game modability is not crucial at all here.
And I'll ask you two questions. Would you invest your last dollar on 2D Heroes? Do you really think that any producer should invest in TBS flagship and make it 2D in this age and have any hope for profit?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 27, 2014 09:54 AM |
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Edited by artu at 10:01, 27 Dec 2014.
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Yes, I would and I know many other people who would. Just like Chess or Tetris, I think a 2D map is by default more practical in comparison to a 3D map, when it comes to Heroes type of TBS games. 3D suits better to Age of Empires kind of RTS. The maps feel bigger, well, they actually are bigger, they are easier on the eye IN COMPARISON, doesn't mean you will necessarily get lost all the time in 3D.
And yes, there are many H5 maps but again, I am comparing here, I am not claiming H5 is total garbage. Maybe, you should check this poll from 2009. If we include Wog, Heroes 3 gets 66 percent of the votes.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted December 27, 2014 10:09 AM |
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How can you say that 3D is better option in RTS where you have to react very fast when you have problem with visibility in TBS where you have all the time in the world to make your move?
Poll in hive of Heroes 3 modders comunity ended in favour of Heroes 3. Whata shocker. But are we talking about what game was better or is 2D or 3D execution more suited?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 27, 2014 10:20 AM |
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Well, if you include wog, HoMM3 gets 43% of votes in Heroes V hive. H5 only 39%, maybe is time you create some expansion to balance out?
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This thread is pages long: 
