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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Reboot concept: Celestial Universe
Thread: Reboot concept: Celestial Universe
Kimarous
Kimarous


Supreme Hero
posted January 23, 2015 05:59 AM

Reboot concept: Celestial Universe

While I have nothing particicular against Ashan personally, I understand the appeal a lot of HoMM fans of starting over and getting rid of Ashan's more... er... "distinct" elements. Consequently, I started brainstorming a potential reboot setting, and while I don't have a lot of "concrete" details, like unit specifics, I'm curious as to how people would respond to my ideas.

I call it the "Celestial Universe" since the factions are, at least to some capacity, tied to either the "face" or "dark side" of a "heavenly body": the sun, the moon, the earth (yes, it counts in this universe), and the dichotomy between stars and the void of space.

The faction lineup, and their link to these bodies, is as follows:

Citadel (Face of the Sun)
Inferno (Dark Side of the Sun)
Stronghold (Face of the Moon)
Necropolis (Dark Side of the Moon)
Sylvan (Face of the Earth)
Dungeon (Dark Side of the Earth)
Rampart (Stars of Space)
Academy (Void of Space)

One more thing before I explain the factions. There would be alternate upgrades in this setting, and the options are split between two alignment mindsets for the chosen faction. It isn't a tracked morality system like H6's "Tears and Blood", however. There are some "fluff" elements that insinuate an in-universe morality, but 1) that only matters to lore enthusiasts, and 2) even then, it doesn't fully define your in-universe outlook. You can select either side to upgrade to, but once you make that upgrade, it is permanent without reconstructing the building.

Now, for the factions and examples of what I mean:

Citadel
------------
What would be "Haven" or "Castle" in other Heroes games, so is Citadel to the Celestial Universe. It's the "stock" faction of "traditional" units, though a little less traditional than normal. Rather than follow standard Western Europe design, it would follow more of a "Crusader state" or "Byzantine empire" aesthetic. As stated before, they represent "the Face of the Sun" - in the same vein of Ashan's Holy Empire, they embrace light as their holy force. Their mindsets are "Nobility" and "Tyranny"; they can be more benevolent and defensive, or harsh and aggressive. For example, a basic Monk might upgrade into a more defensive Abbot/Chaplain or a more aggressive Inquisitor.

Inferno
------------
Representing the "Dark Side of the Sun", the Inferno faction is actually based within the sun. Make no mistake, they are Hell. Or Purgatory. Depends on what upgrades you choose. "Hell" is more chaotic, destructive, and punishing, while "Purgatory" is more authoritative, controlling, and more willing to reward cooperation. The Core tier "Tormented" might upgrade to the "Purged" and (at least in fluff text) redeem their sins through service in Hell's armies, or be permanently "Damned" as slave soldiers against their will. The heroes and Champion tier units can just as easily be the type who just want Hell to run smoothly or ravaging monsters who'd rather see the world burn.

Stronghold
------------
Representing the cold "Face of the Moon", Stronghold stands in general opposition to the Citadel civilizations. They are the barbarians of the frozen north. A mishmash of Nordic, Celtic, and otherwise "northern barbarian" influence, these guys are divided between their "Mastery" of strength and the berserker "Madness" that their lifestyle promotes. A Boar Rider might embrace the Mastery of a Ram's charge or choose the Madness of riding a ferocious Bear. One of their Champion units is the pegasus-riding Amazons, who can become full Valkyrie with the Angel-like ability to restore the dead to life (in opposition to Necropolis' machinations)... or go full warmonger as an Andraste.

Necropolis
------------
The "Dark Side of the Moon", Necropolis covers a wide range of mindsets. Shepherds of the dead? Immortality seekers? The vengeful deceased? These and more are split between the focus on the "Earthly" or the "Spiritual". Spiritual types tend to have Spectral trait and more focus on special abilities, while the Earthly hone their physical forms for better raw stats. A "Spiritual" Skeleton might gain ranged attacks, while an "Earthly" Skeleton would become Armoured. They are symbolized by the dark of the moon because it is the unknown side of a known variable; the pure mystery of the void is for Academy to explore.

Sylvan
------------
Probably the least faction I put effort into, this is the most straightforward. "Face of the Earth" - basically your standard "elves and fairies in the forest" faction. The alignment (which I didn't name) would be either between "friendly forest" and "gaia's vengeance angry forest." Maybe to some extent "Seelie" vs "Unseelie".

Dungeon
------------
"Dark Side of the Earth", the underground Dungeon is the dragon faction. Not just the faction with dragons, but the faction run by dragons. The lower tier units? Their slaves and servants. Actually, I never actually came up with an alignment for them, so "Slavery" vs "Servitude" is probably a good one - the difference between a dwarven miner worked to the bone and a dwarven taxman who literally beats enemies to death with sacks of gold. Probably would have Core as the servants/slaves (like said dwarves), Elite as the enforcers (minotaurs, medusas, and such), and Champion as the dragons running the show.

Rampart
------------
The most distinct of the various factions, the "Stars of Space" are a gnoll-heavy faction with a lot of wild beasts on their side. They have a very "African savannah tribe" to them. Thinking that one of their Champion units would be a four-square sized elephant humanoid; something like this. Depending on whether the would-be "ninth faction" gets added (see far below), they might have the various centaurs, harpies, and such included in their ranks.

Academy
------------
Sort of a mix of classic and Ashan Academy, they represent the "Void of Space", the mysterious unknown. Practitioners and researchers of all things arcane, they are divided between fettered "Understanding" and unfettered "Extravagance". Genie are bound by their lamps; they may be freed with Understanding, or bound into further slavery with Extravagance. Likewise, what to do about a new Champion for Academy: a mobile tear in reality with an eldritch horror slipping through. Should one use the prudence of Understanding and enhance the tear, or help the abomination through purely for the Extravagance of it? (Or at least something along those lines)

Now, I mentioned a potential ninth faction in Rampart's section. I wasn't quite sure if it worked/belonged in my universe, but I suppose it could be squeezed in if I made them the "dark side of the stars"...

Acropolis
------------
Greco-roman mythology. Medusas, harpies, hydras, centaurs, cyclopses, etc. Pretty straightforward, right? I just don't know if it works with all the other elements I cooked up.

So... what do you guys think of my hypothetical Celestial Universe? Think it has potential?

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 23, 2015 07:39 AM

As much as the effort is commendable, I don't think the problem with Ashan is in the details, but in the fact that they try to create some explainable, consistent alternative universe.
Because if it works - where is the connection to us? There is none, obviously. And if it doesn't - why bother?

So basically this can't work, since it want to cater to reason and logic.

Initially, HoMM basically works like Stargate. That has the advantage that you can create any setting you like, and if that setting is to be changed you can just switch. As it is, things are either stagnating or you need solid explanations for every change.

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Kimarous
Kimarous


Supreme Hero
posted January 23, 2015 07:48 AM
Edited by Kimarous at 07:51, 23 Jan 2015.

JollyJoker said:
As much as the effort is commendable, I don't think the problem with Ashan is in the details, but in the fact that they try to create some explainable, consistent alternative universe.
Because if it works - where is the connection to us? There is none, obviously. And if it doesn't - why bother?

So basically this can't work, since it want to cater to reason and logic.

Initially, HoMM basically works like Stargate. That has the advantage that you can create any setting you like, and if that setting is to be changed you can just switch. As it is, things are either stagnating or you need solid explanations for every change.

I... really do not follow. How does "explainable mechanics = lack of a connection"? I, for one, found it impossible to "connect" with the goings on of the pre-Ashan settings because nothing was explained. Fantasy settings shouldn't just be piles of lego to be dumped on the floor, especially when "these pieces go with these pieces... because that's how things are." With that mentality, why are angels only working with the humans? Why can't green dragons be part of Dungeon? Why is everyone else edgy when I bring undead into the fold? If you don't explain the mechanics, all you are left with is a toybox with arbitrary rules.

From my perspective, a lack of detail means a lack of care. If you aren't going to put the time and effort into making me care about the universe, when why even bother making a fantasy universe?

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verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted January 23, 2015 08:03 AM

Well, your outline here is already far superior to Ashan simply because it's not an insulting cliché thought up by Ubi's communications director,
(people know what dragons are, people know what the elements are, think of the money if we make our gods both dragons AND elements lulz,)

but isn't there a bit of a danger because you look like you're walking straight back into the numbered faction limit again?

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Kimarous
Kimarous


Supreme Hero
posted January 23, 2015 08:11 AM

verriker said:
Well, your outline here is already far superior to Ashan simply because it's not an insulting cliché thought up by Ubi's communications director,
(people know what dragons are, people know what the elements are, think of the money if we make our gods both dragons AND elements lulz,)

but isn't there a bit of a danger because you look like you're walking straight back into the numbered faction limit again?

That was something of a concern, yes. Ultimately, a lot of the celestial elements are not that important in the long run beyond inspiration. Only "Hell being inside the sun" has any major relevance, and that can easily be included without fussing over the fluff cosmology.

Unless I tweaked matters so every faction was linked to an individual star, like Hell being linked to Algol or something, but NAH that's dumb!

I'm content with just having the initial "celestial" notion dropped, since they've served their purpose for initial inspiration.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 23, 2015 09:01 AM

Kimarous said:

I... really do not follow. How does "explainable mechanics = lack of a connection"? I, for one, found it impossible to "connect" with the goings on of the pre-Ashan settings because nothing was explained.
But it's a PSEUDO explanation only. The best you can do is EXACTLY that:
Quote:
Fantasy settings shouldn't just be piles of lego to be dumped on the floor, especially when "these pieces go with these pieces... because that's how things are."
You then drop a couple of hints and breadcrumps that get people's OWN fantasy going: "Could it be that", with the aim for everyone to find their own explanation why things are like they are.
Quote:

From my perspective, a lack of detail means a lack of care. If you aren't going to put the time and effort into making me care about the universe, when why even bother making a fantasy universe?
And it's not about lacking details - it's lacking about a definite cosmology. How does it make sense to have one - when we don't have one in reality?
I mean, look at, say, Game of Thrones, arguably one of the finest pieces of fantasy writing, at least up to when GM was still working on it on a regular basis. Do you know what the hell of a world/universe that is? Where the magic comes from? Which Gods are existing, if any, and which not and for what reason? What kind of a world that is?
Nope - not so. But is there a lack of detail? Lol, of course not. It's just a lack of EXPLANATION, and that's what good story-telling is about. Think fairy tales. How come those animals can speak? Witches, Dwarves, Trolls - where do they come from?
The answer is - who cares. The story is good or it's not, and to hell with the explanation that isn't there anyway, because it's just a story.

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Kimarous
Kimarous


Supreme Hero
posted January 23, 2015 09:27 AM
Edited by Kimarous at 09:33, 23 Jan 2015.

I get the feeling that there was a miscommunication and you are I are talking about two completely different things. I'm coming from the perspective of "Magic A is Magic A and that is how this works, Magic B is Magic B and this is how that works" and thinking that you disapprove of that, while your last post seems to be more "don't tell me EVERYTHING; leave SOME mystery"... and that's a notion I can get behind. I'm not intending to follow the footsteps of Ashan and say "and these gods made this, and saw that it was good... except for that, which was total snow, and so they did this to the snow, which..." blah blah blah. I just like certain elements to feel consistent with each other and not ENTIRELY out of the blue. "Why are there leprecauns hanging out with gnolls in Lethal Lava Land?" "BECAUSE!" It's those kinds of "BECAUSE!" statements that I like to avoid, not the ones of "How did elves come into being?"

I suppose balance is necessary. There's room for both explanations and ambiguity. One of my favourite fantasy universes is the realm of Ardarnia, and while there is a rich lore that explains a lot, there are a lot of unanswered questions. "And then the lone god Krolm sired two kids, who became gods as well." "Who was their mom?" "Dunno. Moving on..." "Could she be the unknown goddess mentioned in the final expansion pack mission?" "Dunno. Moving on."

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 23, 2015 10:21 AM

I would have a severe and decisive problem with things like Dark Side of the Earth and Dark Side of the Sun.

There are also not enough different combinations possible, even with those that make no sense for me (or would point to some kind of extremely weird universe).
What I'm missing most in Ashan is CHANGE. It's bad enough, things start out with 6 factions only, but it's worse that after HoMM VI of all things at least even TRIED to come up with a new faction, these fixed settings make it difficult to come up with a new one. It's ominous that Sanctuary is missing on your list, mind you.

Which means, bottom line for me is, that I'm not exactly enthusiastic about this.
Just think about how effortless people come up with new towns/factions for HoMM 3 - which has no "order" in any way. THAT'S the real deal in this regard! Coven, Forge, Oasis ... YEAH, BABY! Reason for a new HoMM!

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted January 23, 2015 12:46 PM

First on the (a bitofftopic, imo) discussion... I can understand both sides. I have also often thought, like Jolly Joker, that Ashan is a bit too ...defined...static. In HoMM3, as he mentioned, it was easily possible to thnk about any new faction because lore was only a distant background, more or less. In Ashan, the Lore is too prominent for that. here, the lore has much more influence on the game than in H I - H3. However, I ama fan of fantasy settings and I can understand the longing for an explained, detailed background - or "fluff" I think that is not really solvable and one just has to walk the path they like most.

On the proposal here...
I personally like the double dichotomy of  face vs. dark side and 2 alignments per faction. What I'dlike more information about is what the bodies mean for you, actually. Especially the moon: what meaning does it have for you?
Of the single factions, it is harrd to sayanything without more info.Not sure about acropolis but it indeed could go as opposite of that tribe faction...if that becomes the face of the stars and this the dark side of them. Academy would then maybe be more interestin even as teh onlyones who do not choose face or dark side, as the space itself has no sides!

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Kimarous
Kimarous


Supreme Hero
posted January 23, 2015 05:08 PM

Jiriki9 said:
On the proposal here...
I personally like the double dichotomy of  face vs. dark side and 2 alignments per faction. What I'dlike more information about is what the bodies mean for you, actually. Especially the moon: what meaning does it have for you?
Of the single factions, it is harrd to sayanything without more info.Not sure about acropolis but it indeed could go as opposite of that tribe faction...if that becomes the face of the stars and this the dark side of them. Academy would then maybe be more interestin even as teh onlyones who do not choose face or dark side, as the space itself has no sides!


When putting more thought into it, the dichotomy between "face" and "dark side" is something of a general opposition between two particular faction. Citadel and Inferno (Face and Dark Side of the Sun) have a general opposition of "holy vs unholy", whereas the conflict between Stronghold and Necropolis is more about straight-up "life vs death" and the balance therein: one side revelling in life while indulging in death, with the other controlling death to retain some aspect of life... and at the same time, there's head-butting between the "holy/unholy" and "life/death" ("sun" and "moon") for more grey values dissonance. Sylvan/Dungeon is more "freedom" vs "control", even when the internal schisms for each faction have that same conflict within themselves.

The real tricky one is working out the dynamic between the last three factions. I think my initial vision was the dynamic between Academy and Rampart - the "refined" vs the "raw", or at least the perception of such. Acropolis vs Academy is possible, but I'd rather not follow the cliche route of "the old ways and faith" vs "outgrown such silly superstitions". Rampart vs Acropolis is the real pickle. Only think I can think of is "general spirituality and animism" vs "specific old god pantheon".

I suppose that's something this setting could have altered... less of a focus on specific celestial symbols and more a focus on opposing concepts. With that said, I'd need to cook up at least one more faction to retain that balance and keep the factions at an even number. Still, "two new factions per expansion" isn't a terrible idea.

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted January 23, 2015 09:31 PM

Hmmm, maybe, though I think having one non-oppository faction would be interesting.

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Kimarous
Kimarous


Supreme Hero
posted January 24, 2015 04:25 AM
Edited by Kimarous at 04:30, 24 Jan 2015.

I don't have complete ideas or faction names, but I've thought of a few things that my universe could potentially include:

1) an "elemental" faction along the lines of Conflux.

2) an orc/goblin/ogre/humanoid monster faction; think H3 Stronghold, but without being called Stronghold (unless my current Stronghold gets renamed)

3) a "early firearms / gunpowder" civ... single-shot black powder arms, not full auto modern guns. Maybe with a pirate or Renaissance theme... or both?

4) "not quite sci-fi but close enough" mech society a la the film "Atlantis: The Lost Empire"; maybe with a Mayincatec flavour? Y'know, stuff like this or this.

5) a corrupting influence, but not a traditional one: bloodlust made manifest. Think "elements of what H6 Inferno wanted to do, but didn't commit to" + elements from Radical Entertainment's game series "Prototype" + warped "just plain wrong" stuff that doesn't fit in other factions.

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Kimarous
Kimarous


Supreme Hero
posted January 28, 2015 09:34 AM

So, new idea. Rather than make a whole new topic at this time, I thought I'd post it here since it seems "celestial" in grand concept.

I was thinking of the underlying sci-fi elements of the NWC era and thought about having two separate worlds that interact with each other, distantly viewing each other in the sky and warping to one another through portals...

And then the notion of my "moral alignment" alternate upgrade ideas changed into "What if we had two entirely separate factions for those differing ideas - same 'general' flavour of faction, but different units with different aesthetics?"

In other words, HoMM with double the factions thanks to a mirror universe.

In the one corner: righteous Haven, hellish Inferno, wise Academy, undead Necropolis, conquering Dungeon, etc.

In the other corner: tyrannical Keep, restless Limbo, scheming Tower, wispy Nether, diverse Asylum, etc.

Perhaps neither side is COMPLETELY good or evil, but one or the other is more likely to have the "gooder" or "eviler" variations. Necropolis could have its more Nosferatu-like vampires, whereas Nether could have the more regal Dracula style; Haven could have Monks and Abbots while Keep has Witch Hunters and Inquisitors... that sort of thing.

Thoughts?

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