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| Thread: Heroes of War and Craft |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 08, 2015 06:14 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 18:15, 08 Feb 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
Wait, what?!  I remember he said that he started from H3, but did he said that he never played H2?
Well, technically his exact words were that he "mainly" played Heroes III and Heroes IV.
Sandro400 said:
Partially agreed. I'm not with you completely about the Liches
I don’t say non-skeletal Lich are bound to look bad, but seriously, Uncle Fester meth-head, again? 
Sandro400 said:
Funny thing is - does fanbase itself knows what it wants?
Well as a whole of course not. But I believe some people true to the franchise ever since the early years are pretty consistent about their expectations.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 06:16 PM |
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Hahaha were are your arguments boy? Will you call them out sleeping sun or lizard?
Anyway lore in the old HEROES of Might and Magic? You got a lot of lore im the M&M but in Heroes?
Practically means "in practical means". If you have to play other 9 games (of a different genre to top it off) just to know whats the (ie) Naga origin thats not practical at all. To make things worse it had the cohesion of snot.
I find it lovely how you choose the ignore the first part of my post because you know its true. Make H3 today and not only it will be generic and bland story wise, it'll have at least two assured lost sues via the beholder and the gorgon creatures
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 08, 2015 06:26 PM |
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Galaad said:
Well, technically his exact words were that he "mainly" played Heroes III and Heroes IV.
|takes a deep breath|. I'm so relieved. Because a man "in charge of the legacy" who haven't played H2 is a paradox indeed.
P.S.: you edited yuor post in time, because I saw unedited edition and was like "uhm, what the heck?!"
Galaad said:
I don’t say non-skeletal Lich are bound to look bad, but seriously, Uncle Fester meth-head, again?
Ofc not, make them more rotten, as I states previously. That's why I said "not completely".
Galaad said:
Well as a whole of course not. But I believe some people true to the franchise ever since the early years are pretty consistent about their expectations.
Agreed. But of them are too conservative in my opinion. In Heroes we have something like a crisis: people want something new and fresh but without bending the traditions. That's a nightmare, really.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 08, 2015 06:31 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 18:33, 08 Feb 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
I'm so relieved. Because a man "in charge of the legacy" who haven't played H2 is a paradox indeed.
Well to me the fact that he didn't even bother to quote it speaks enough by itself for me.
Sandro400 said:
That's a nightmare, really.
Or what you could call, a challenge worthy of Heroes only!
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 06:47 PM |
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@Sandro
Here's the thing.
- Warcraft came before H6 and H7
- World of Warcraft, which is MMO based on Warcraft, came before H6 and H7 aswell
- These are popular franchises, whith, at the time of their release, distictive artistic design.
- Everyone knows WoW ... well not everyone, but most of people do.
- WoW dominated gaming industry for several years, and is still popular today.
- H6 came out in 2011 - that is 6 years! after WoW
- design of buildings, units, as well as general feel is very similar to WoW. Even more similar than H5 was to Warhammer:Fantasy. (as Lizard pointed it out in an excelent way)
- Ubisoft knew very well, (and I can claim that with large degree of certainty, because it's illogical that they didn't), about WoW, Blizzard, and art style of those games.
This things can not be denied. Wheter or not charges of plagiarism would stand on court is not a concern at this point. There are several factors to include here, including the fact that ... is Blizzard even interasted in such procedure? And ofc the fact that strong defensive arguments against it can be made, as you provided.
One fact remains, and would remain, even if legal suit would take place and Ubi would win. This fact is: Ashan stuff is very similar than Azeroth stuff. To deny this is silly.
And Lizard only pointed the similarities. He did not directly charge Ubi of violation of copyright laws or plagiarism.
However, since this similarities exist, and WoW is 6 years older, while Warcraft is older even than that, one can logicaly assert, that World of Ashan leans heavily on World of Warcraft, at least as aesthetics goes.
Now. If you don't see these things and still think of Ashan as being totaly unique and all that, fine. I won't try to convince you furter, since there's realy no use at this point it seems. Maybe it is because you never played Warcraft 3 nor WoW ... but if so ... atleast play Warcraft 3 (seriously it's awsome), and then say they aren't similar.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 08, 2015 06:51 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
Anyway lore in the old HEROES of Might and Magic? You got a lot of lore im the M&M but in Heroes?
And you separate them because?
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 08, 2015 07:03 PM |
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Zenofex said:
And you separate them because?
The point of his argument is that the lore of Old games is in the RPG games, but not all people who played the TBS played the RPGs, and even more, those who plyed TBSs befor the RPG were put off by some of the elements like Sci-fi features.
This si commonly known Zeno and is a valid argument against the story part of old games. We know it, but most people don't.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 08, 2015 07:12 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
The point of his argument is that the lore of Old games is in the RPG games, but not all people who played the TBS played the RPGs, and even more, those who plyed TBSs befor the RPG were put off by some of the elements like Sci-fi features.
This si commonly known Zeno and is a valid argument against the story part of old games. We know it, but most people don't.
well this is not really the truth,
for example all of the lore driving Heroes 4 was right there in the actual game and not tied to anything else,
whereas much of the lore driving Heroes 5 was tied to Dark Messiah or existed only on their website lol
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 08, 2015 07:13 PM |
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Forget the sci-fi and the whole Forge thing, how can you separate M&M and Heroes and explain the whole Inferno faction or the "sudden" re-appearance of the king of Enroth in the re-worked Armageddon's Blade campaign?
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 07:22 PM |
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Zenofex said:
GenyaArikado said:
Anyway lore in the old HEROES of Might and Magic? You got a lot of lore im the M&M but in Heroes?
And you separate them because?
Because if to access the lore of the Naga you have to play another game then it means the lore in HEROES is PRACTICALly non existant.
And yet you keep dodging my question.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 08, 2015 07:31 PM |
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What is your question?
That part...
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Because if to access the lore of the Naga you have to play another game then it means the lore in HEROES is PRACTICALly non existant.
... is wrong on all levels but the most obvious is - you have a game universe which consists of all products which are considered canon. No single part of that universe lives its own life if it contains elements related to the other parts. If you are too lazy to find how and where M&M is related to Heroes, that's certainly not a problem of the lore and doesn't make it "non-existent". You can just as successfully call Star Wars I-VI's lore non-existent because it doesn't explain the origins of the Jedi and the Sith, they just pop up in there. Heh.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 08, 2015 07:32 PM |
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Galaad said:
Well to me the fact that he didn't even bother to quote it speaks enough by itself for me.
Or what you could call, a challenge worthy of Heroes only!
Maybe he doesn't like it. I know many people who like H3 more than H2. We're more like exceptions ^^
A challenge some of us surely accepted! And I'd say that it's better than doing nothing at all.
Now, to you, @Zombi... I'll try to make it short.
I haven't denied the similarities. I deny that they're deliberately made - i.e. "ripped-off". I'm tired to repeat that following trens and ripping off are two different things. I'm tired to repeat that if you 2 people take inspiration from 1 source, the end result of their work will be similar. Architecture is similar because it's based on one and the same culture. But let's look at details and compare the amount of differencies and similarities. You say
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This fact is: Ashan stuff is very similar than Azeroth stuff. To deny this is silly.
, but aside from Necro architecture, every other point made by Lizard is too far-fetched. And when you say those things, I urge you to actually count the amount of similarities and differencies. Statistics. Need I say that Ashan stuff is more different from WoW than similar?   Btw, calling things "silly" doesn't make your point look smarter 
Quote:
Now. If you don't see these things and still think of Ashan as being totaly unique and all that, fine.
Aaaand you totally missed the point! Though I'm not surprised. Do you have my citation where I called Ashan unique? Be my guest. Hell, the way you said it almost looks like an accusation ^^
P.S.: just a friendly advice: if you want a healthy conversation, do not perverse your opponent's words or "accuse" him of what he hasn't said. Btw, you again ignored my quote about "causing the ire of Blizzard", nice!
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 08, 2015 07:33 PM |
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@Zeno: could you please re-phrase that question, I'm not sure I get it.
@Verriker: While I must accept that H4 had the best storywrting in the series (Never played the story, but the generaly positive additude towards it made me accept it as a fact) it had some advantages that heroes V did not have. The lore of heroes V was rather fragil as it was the first game, and only since DM it started to stand on it's feat. That is also why we got those retcones (there are not that many). Heroes V wasn'z build to show us the world, it introduced us to it, that is all. Similery like H1 and H2 did. Later games carry the burden of building on this.
Like I said, if the world was well don from the start, it would work better, but it ended like it did.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 07:49 PM |
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Zenofex said:
What is your question?
That part...
Quote:
Because if to access the lore of the Naga you have to play another game then it means the lore in HEROES is PRACTICALly non existant.
... is wrong on all levels but the most obvious is - you have a game universe which consists of all products which are considered canon. No single part of that universe lives its own life if it contains elements related to the other parts. If you are too lazy to find how and where M&M is related to Heroes, that's certainly not a problem of the lore and doesn't make it "non-existent". You can just as successfully call Star Wars I-VI's lore non-existent because it doesn't explain the origins of the Jedi and the Sith, they just pop up in there. Heh.
Seems like a poor comparison on your part. Jedi and Sith at least have SOME background details - "For over a thousand generations, the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." "Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millennium!" At the very least, they HINT at some background details that could be explored in full.
Nagas, though? Do they even ACKNOWLEDGE that Nagas exist? Are they ever mentioned anywhere besides the unit recruitment?
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted February 08, 2015 08:03 PM |
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Quote:
@Zeno: could you please re-phrase that question, I'm not sure I get it.
The question is, even if you put aside the very base of the M&M universe, how can you explain certain elements in stories of Heroes (like the mentioned above) if you don't know what has happened in M&M?
Quote:
Seems like a poor comparison on your part. Jedi and Sith at least have SOME background details - "For over a thousand generations, the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." "Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millennium!" At the very least, they HINT at some background details that could be explored in full.
Nagas, though? Do they even ACKNOWLEDGE that Nagas exist? Are they ever mentioned anywhere besides the unit recruitment?
What is your point? Why should every creature have a dedicated piece of text explaining its existence? How are the Nagas important to the M&M/Heroes lore to deserve that? Ewoks are also not explained but managed to beat the bloody, goddamn Galactic Empire! Oh ****, Star Wars has no lore again!
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 08, 2015 08:11 PM |
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I'm gonna have to side with Zeno here. Just cause lore isn't presented doesn't mean it doesn't exist and just cause something is presented doesn't mean it's superior.
Nagas didn't get any lore in heroes 3 because that wasn't important. No one misses anything by not knowing how or what they are. they're there because they make good tier 6 creatures. nothing else is needed. H6/7 on the other hand has too much lore that no one need. we don't need to know what rakshasas (or whatever) are or how they were made. the only reason they should be in the game is because they work well as elite creatures. leave the lore for games that gain from it and external sources. Leave it for the RPG, not the TBS.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 08, 2015 08:24 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
I deny that they're deliberately made - i.e. "ripped-off".
So, It's totaly accidental. Yea right. Erwan is someone who lives in a cave. He never uses internet, and does not know what google is. Because if he does, he knows what is WoW.
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Architecture is similar because it's based on one and the same culture.
Even tho that end result in both cases looks nothing like the source. Zigurat does not look anything like this. So no. Wait ... zigurat does look like this ... in Warcraft and only Warcraft.
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aside from Necro architecture, every other point made by Lizard is too far-fetched.
No. It's realy not. Things that Lizard pointed out are very similar. Only Spider-lady vs Sylvanas is a bit dodgy. Other is more or less spot on.
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Aaaand you totally missed the point! Though I'm not surprised. Do you have my citation where I called Ashan unique? Be my guest.
Allright, I'll oblige. "aside from Necro architecture, every other point made by Lizard is too far-fetched." Meaning - Aside from necro architecture, there are not similarities at all, meaning each of them is unique in it's own right. Maybe you ment something diferent, but this is basicaly what can be understood from this statement.
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Hell, the way you said it almost looks like an accusation ^^
Yes. I accused you of saying: "every other point made by Lizard is too far-fetched." Which you did say. Or do you deny?
Quote:
Btw, you again ignored my quote about "causing the ire of Blizzard", nice!
No. Maybe I wasn't clear but, here. Let me qoute myself:
"Wheter or not charges of plagiarism would stand on court is not a concern at this point. There are several factors to include here, including the fact that ... is Blizzard even interasted in such procedure? And ofc the fact that strong defensive arguments against it can be made"
What this mean is: Blizzard, who is a giant compared to Limbic (not Ubi, but Limbic, since they develop this things) may not even care. Because it is not only game which copies their stuff. It's dozen titles out there. Lague of Legends amongst them, as well as Darksiders ... So even if they succed they would need to do the same with those, otherwise Ubi/Limbic would have valid point of: "they can do it, so why can't we." GW is way more strict in these things, and they don't allow anyone to borrow their stuff.
Then is ofc the matter of Ubi simply asking Blizzard for their aproval, prior to developing Ashan. Yes companies do comunicate. But you know this. GW either didn't aprove them, or they didn't ask, or GW wanted them to change their original design, and end result didn't satisfy them so ... law suit.
Or maybe, because HoMM isn't such a big series, they don't care to start multi milion dollar suit that would drag for several years, with both parties losing huge ammount of money, with unpredictible outcome.
Most likely scenario is tho, that Limbic created Vampire, showed it to Blizz, if it's cool, and they said it's cool.
Now. I like you Sandro. My post is not aimed against you, nor is it acusation. But your general state, that I can understand from your post is: Ashan is very diferent than Azeroth, and any similarities are just coincidence. Whith which I don't agree. And if you indeed agree that they are very similar, but it's just accident, then this means there must be quite a bit of accidents involved.
EDIT: Or ... Blizzard does not have certain parts of their game copy-protected, so other companies can use this loop hole. HoMM is not only game - like I said look at LOL - it is even more similar. How do they avoid Blizzard's fury? The same as HoMM does. Which is not for me to know.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 08, 2015 08:35 PM |
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@Zenofex&kiryu133
We may debate about how each chaptr presented it's story, or how mandatory it is to play all the games from all ganers, but this is not exactly a the topic of Lore.
It is a fact, that not all people who play Heroes played the other games. And I agree with Kiryu133 that we don't need the backstories of each creature to have fun.
But the world of Enroth had its gaps that could not be fille by playing all the games. Example why was Roland a Wizzard in H2 but a Knight i H3?, Why was Bracada a high mountain land of everfrost in H3 but a dessert in MaM7. Such things are examples of a messy lore, not if i know the story from one game only.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted February 08, 2015 08:36 PM |
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Oh Genya, you start to beat yourself with your own arguments, this is actually quite funny:
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I find it lovely how you choose the ignore the first part of my post because you know its true
I find it lovely how you choose the ignore 90% of my post because you know its true
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creatures looked literally out of their respective movie/tabletop game
it'll have at least two assured lost sues via the beholder and the gorgon creatures
In the first post you will see that I acknowledge that the old games copied too, but compare what they copied first. Movies, board games and books, at least they had the decency to don't steal from other companies in their own industry, while Ubisoft uses a xerox on whatever the mainstream video games franchises do. Also this thread has nothing to do with the old universe, but with the art direction which is very similar to warcraft's
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Practically means "in practical means". If you have to play other 9 games (of a different genre to top it off)
So, I got to play CoH, DM, look at the DoC artworks and read the Compendium to see what is going on. Also the short stories they publish. Warcraft and Ubi M&M even publish books on that matter, they aren't even games, you got to read a book to understand what happens in a game behind the scenes. There are a lot of things that are in the main games, but you got the read a book in order to see their origin. So your argument is pretty invalid.
Also, you start to be smoldering, maybe you should get a pause. You know, stress ain't good for your organism, especially over a video-game which is supposed to be relaxing.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 08, 2015 08:36 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 20:41, 08 Feb 2015.
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what kind of lore of the Naga does one even expect lol? how would a bible documenting 1000 years of Naga culture in Bracada actually advance the story the games are trying to tell?
nobody would have even cared about the motives of the Naga before Erwin turned everyone's priorities back to front lol
Dave_Jame said:
@Verriker: While I must accept that H4 had the best storywrting in the series (Never played the story, but the generaly positive additude towards it made me accept it as a fact) it had some advantages that heroes V did not have. The lore of heroes V was rather fragil as it was the first game, and only since DM it started to stand on it's feat. That is also why we got those retcones (there are not that many). Heroes V wasn'z build to show us the world, it introduced us to it, that is all. Similery like H1 and H2 did. Later games carry the burden of building on this.
Like I said, if the world was well don from the start, it would work better, but it ended like it did.
but Heroes 4 was also the first game in Axeoth, and it introduced us to that world, and it was made by an incoming team of writers... there's pretty much no advantage lol, in fact you'd expect Heroes 5 to have been better with its cleaner slate and advanced budget
Dave_Jame said:
Example why was Roland a Wizzard in H2 but a Knight i H3?
he dual classed just like his brother lol
Dave_Jame said:
Why was Bracada a high mountain land of everfrost in H3 but a dessert in MaM7.
the desert is a different region, Celeste is in the snowy mountains and you get there by teleporter
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