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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Magic heroes too weak?
Thread: Magic heroes too weak? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT»
solomonhume
solomonhume

Tavern Dweller
posted February 27, 2015 12:44 AM
Edited by solomonhume at 00:45, 27 Feb 2015.

Magic heroes too weak?

Buff and debuff spells in Heroes of Might and Magic are usually better than damage spells

For these spells, your power only affect duration, therefore the importance of power diminishes quickly as your power is higher. These spells are cost effective that making high knowledge not useful.

Most of the time, magic heroes are casting buff spells like slow, iron skin. They are not much better than a might hero having, say 3 power, 3 knowledge. And what is the trade off? Magic hero has less attack & defense, you have to build expensive magic guilds.

My suggestion of balance is, to allow heroes to cast twice each round. Spells that can be boosted by power (all damage spells, resurrection, summon elements) once, and other spell once. This will make both high power and knowledge more useful.

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kicferk
kicferk


Known Hero
posted February 27, 2015 09:02 AM

Casting spels twice per round sounds like a balance, but I would argue that it would not solve the problem.

Magic heroes in the beginning of the game lack mana to do that. On the other hand, casting spell twice a roung is a fantastic opportunity to exploit the hell of hit and run in endgame. So from one bad situation you get a similarly bad one.

And finally, magic heroes would still be countered by red orb completely and by recanter's cloak quite much...

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted February 27, 2015 09:12 AM

I think a lot of the issues can be solved by giving Mass spells only to Magic Heroes, not to Might Heroes. Or perhaps put them in higher tiers, so that Wisdom becomes a required skill for Mass versions of spells.

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solomonhume
solomonhume

Tavern Dweller
posted February 27, 2015 11:03 AM

kicferk said:


Magic heroes in the beginning of the game lack mana to do that. On the other hand, casting spell twice a roung is a fantastic opportunity to exploit the hell of hit and run in endgame. So from one bad situation you get a similarly bad one.



How do you hit and run in the end game? Damage spell and slow? I am not talking about casting any spells twice. I am talking about dividing spells into types (power related and unrelated), and each type can be cast once.

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kicferk
kicferk


Known Hero
posted February 27, 2015 11:13 AM

Well, berserk does not depend on spell power and, say, armageddon does. Casting both and running away afterwards is a perfect hit and run, or if anything, hit and die...

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted February 27, 2015 11:35 AM
Edited by Ebonheart at 11:46, 27 Feb 2015.

Several suggestions here sounds good to me but alas balance will never be perfect.

The "only magic heroes can use mass spells" idea is a decent one but that will still not solve the problem. For then people will start looking for the best "magic hero" with "combat" stats, which will just have the N1 hero class, the barbarian, step down for the battle mage.

Allowing two spells per round is interesting but that also needs a rule saying "you cannot cast spell X two times in a row". Cause 2x blinds/2x Berserks, just to name a few, would be way over the top. Perhaps even a rule that only allows 1x cast from X school per round.

One idea that I once brainstormed about is to allow magic heroes regenerate a set amount of mana (depending on number of your Knowledge stat(this in its turn would make the Wizard class a bit more interesting since warlocks have always been sought as the Power stat has been way more powerful.)) after every fight you conquer, allowing them the similar manner of "keep pushing" as a might hero would.
Also to allow them to pick 1 free spell out of the magic school one places points in. For example Basic Earth Magic will allow you to pick any spell from the level 2 earth line, advanced from lv 3 and expert a lv 4 spell, however a level cap is needed here so you don't sit with for example, expert fire magic + Armageddon + efreeti at lv 4.". There would be little reason to allow first school spells as they are so abundant, and lv 5 spells would be a bit too strong (thinking of implosion and sacrifice). Also only the first magic will grant this bonus, so picking Earth Magic and then Fire Magic will not allow you free picks from the fire line.
It will also force the player to make more interesting choices when it comes to the spell school. Shall I pick earth magic for a easy map cleaning or perhaps risk a harder map fight in exchange to take berserking? This in its turn will also increase the value of certain anti spell/magic artifacts for both sides.

Please share your thoughts.


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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted February 27, 2015 12:16 PM

I've written it in a different post before, though I don't know where I wrote it .

The main issue that I see is the passive addition of the ATK and DEF scores of the Hero to the troops under his/her command. The only way to remedy this is by annulling this and designing a set of combat commands / war cries / manouevers, which require study as well. Mirror the Magic Guild with a Military Academy. Having passive additions to ATK and DEF could be one of the Military "spells" (I call them like this losely, because Magic is not involved here). It should stand on itself and be different than the way Magic skills and spells are set up, but yet be of similar influence on the battlefield as Magic spells are.

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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Known Hero
posted February 27, 2015 01:15 PM

How about

-limiting Might heroes to 5-10 spell points per Knowledge point?

-restricting some artifacts concerning magic to Magic heroes (Red Orb, Tomes, Orbs, spell scrolls...) or introducing Wisdom skill/respective Magic school skill as prerequisite?

-a bonus for proficiency in all Magic schools?

-a general damage/effect bonus for Magic heroes?

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DivineClio
DivineClio


Adventuring Hero
posted February 27, 2015 01:51 PM
Edited by DivineClio at 13:56, 27 Feb 2015.

My thought here:

Every point in knowledge give 1 "magic point".(maybe x0.8 might, 1.2x magic hero).Those point refresh every turn.
Casting the first spell doesn t spend any magic point.Cast the second-third-fourt spells in one turn will use magic point depending on spell powerfull.

Still no idea for a good formula for mutiple cast, or something like:

exp function(with base magic point)
____________________  - something with magic school= magic point used.

something about turn

(is a fraction)-X=point


My 2 cent

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kicferk
kicferk


Known Hero
posted February 27, 2015 02:07 PM

Sorry, but that is just broken.

Getting a hero with double mana and thrashing an enemy when you have speed advantage.

You have, say, 300 points, and you can either unleash multiple armageddon(with phoenixes), or antimagic and armageddon, or haste/multiple frenzy, or multiple berserk. More than one spell at increased cost does not make sense, as in late game you have huge amount of mana, making speed advantage along with your idea is way too game breaking.

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DivineClio
DivineClio


Adventuring Hero
posted February 27, 2015 02:21 PM
Edited by DivineClio at 14:49, 27 Feb 2015.

If u read close, you see i didn t mentioned mana at all.
For have 300 magic point(which are different to mana) you need roughly 300 knowledge

For example triple blind-> 1 , 8 , 25 (with expert fire) = 34 magic point = 34 knowledge for do it.

Counter by a triple dispel/cure (which will cost less of course) or a expert water dispel/cure

antimagic+armageddon? -> 1, (1 17 M.P  2 36 M.P) (with expert in both magic) = 37 = 37 knowledge.

Counter by a antimagic/antifire.The enemy must cast the armageddon as 3rd chain(if he want full effect the combo) =almost impossibile.(70+ knowledge needed)
Doungeon or things on map won t broken it, because is based on knowledge, not on total mana you have.

Plus even might on late game will have not much truble to double cast not much impactfull spell like a blind-haste or shield-slow, but bersek+resuscitation is almost out of them possibility unless you boost knowledge

Number now are qualitative, and i suck balance things.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted February 27, 2015 02:30 PM

DivineClio, I really don't understand what you're trying to say. In the first post you make you say that every point of Knowledge equals roughly one point of Magic, and in your second you say that 300 points of Magic requires 3000 Knowledge?

Also, it is needlessley convoluted that way and you can't incorporate it into your strategy easily.

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DivineClio
DivineClio


Adventuring Hero
posted February 27, 2015 02:44 PM
Edited by DivineClio at 14:48, 27 Feb 2015.

Ops, my bad here. 300 "magic point" -> might=375 knowledge              
                                       -> magic=250 knowledge

Maybe you confuse "magic point" with mana too
As i said is just an idea all number will change for better fit the gameplay.
Of curse is needed tons of study for fair number.

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted February 27, 2015 03:23 PM

The overall problem with HoMM 3 in general sometimes, is the fact that Attack>Defense (although these are a bit more balanced) and Power>Knowledge.

The system I proposed would at least make knowledge more useful and also increase the usage of Wizards/Witches. By regenerating mana after each battle based on knowledge, it will be more valuable. Allowing the mana user to cast more spells than a might hero.

But I suggest you have a look on what I wrote before, for I would like to get some feedback.

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DivineClio
DivineClio


Adventuring Hero
posted February 27, 2015 03:45 PM

Clio quick capsule rewiew, PIECE OF SH1T. joking
I don t like the regen mana after battle because imply you need to care less about mana.(while the problem is root in mysticism IMO)
About free spell, there is magic scholl, altar and scroll isn t enough for you?

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted February 27, 2015 03:59 PM

The reason that I suggest a mana regeneration after battle, is because you rarely walk back to your main town in online games and spend a day in there. Also the lack/annoying locations of magic wells on the map makes it harder for magic heroes.

While Mysticsm is there to help, it barely does anything at all, even at max level and that also means one must invest points in it, causing a might hero to become better.

About the spell suggestion, there aren't enough alternatives as it is for me. For starters, most online games last so long that a player can build over lv 2 magi guild and ALSO visit with the main hero or a scholar hero and then transfer the spells.

Altars can only be up to level 3 and can also have very frustrating locations on the map. Let alone the fact that this is random.
Scrolls on the other hand are more abundant, but also forbidden in most online games when it comes to higher level spells, which again makes a might hero better.

I shall be frank and say that there is only one can where I have preferd Knowledge>Power and that is on the Dracon campaign in the AB expansion. With this idea I brought up knowledge would serve more purpose and boost magic heroes popularity online a bit at least.

What about you others, do you have any opinions?

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solomonhume
solomonhume

Tavern Dweller
posted February 27, 2015 05:16 PM

Maybe reducing spell duration will help magic heroes. For example, if a spell only last power/3 turns, it will hurt might heroes more than magic heroes.

Besides, in HoMM3 opposite spells will negate the earlier ones. If you have 7 turns of blessing, and is cursed for 5  turns, you will lost your blessing and be cursed for 5 turns. Instead, let them cancel each other will make magic heroes more useful. In this case, 7-5 = 2, so another 2 turns of blessing remains.  

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted February 27, 2015 05:25 PM

solomonhume said:
Maybe reducing spell duration will help magic heroes. For example, if a spell only last power/3 turns, it will hurt might heroes more than magic heroes.

Besides, in HoMM3 opposite spells will negate the earlier ones. If you have 7 turns of blessing, and is cursed for 5  turns, you will lost your blessing and be cursed for 5 turns. Instead, let them cancel each other will make magic heroes more useful. In this case, 7-5 = 2, so another 2 turns of blessing remains.  


Problem is mate that most online battles are decided after 1-2 turns. Which would leave might heroes to be better despite the change.

Not even the second idea is that great once you think about it, as it will primarely come down to the pure luck of picking slow/haste, if both heroes pick haste for instance, then the effect is 0, which will make the might hero prevail.

Let's also not forget the fact that in the end battle, the might hero might very well sit with 20 Power and Knowledge aswell due to artifacts, and since the magic hero had no strength vs the map, you can expect the might hero to enter the treassure zone way quicker.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted February 27, 2015 06:50 PM

Might heroes can use their abilities (high attack and defense) more often each round than a magic hero. That's the main issue in my eyes.

So how about:

1. Every spell has additonal to its costs a "refresh rate". It determines how many battle rounds have to pass by until it can be cast again.

2. On every turn of a unit, the player can decide if either he wants to use (move, attack, defend, etc...) the unit which has its turn, or cast a spell from his spellbook instead. This way, a magician could cast seven times instead of moving any of his 7 units (if they all stay alive this round that is...)

3. The max distance a unit can walk on the battlefield is half of the complete range of the whole field from left to the right. Let's say 6 hexes. So you still can categorize all the units in 6 different speed types. But you need at least 2 rounds with your fastest unit to reach the opposite side of the battlefield.

4. Slow and haste only affects the order of action of the units, but not the wlaking/flying range. Teleport spell would raise in value that way...

5. .....maybe more
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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kicferk
kicferk


Known Hero
posted February 27, 2015 08:08 PM

I feel that would make magic heroes way better to hit and run then they are now. I mean, 2 turns to reach opponent, 3-4 turns to kill him, and he can cast different dmg spells up to 7 times per round? Looks for me like red orb and recanters(well, maybe some dragons too) would be the only thing giving sure victory, with endless mage-pixie wars...

Plus, it does not solve mages running low on mana and being in general less effective vs map than might heroes :/

I feel like the game is balanced enough, that is, mage heroes have their uses, they are just not the best when leading large armies against other large armies. Perect for secondary or scout, not so much for main.

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