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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Magic heroes too weak?
Thread: Magic heroes too weak? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
Nitramar
Nitramar


Adventuring Hero
posted February 27, 2015 10:21 PM
Edited by Nitramar at 22:32, 27 Feb 2015.

Wouldn't the issue be solvable simply by modifying the spells?
As mentioned, the spells are quite weak, except for a few mass buffs/debuffs which do not require magic skills anyway. So the problem is that might heroes get most of the benefits of magic heroes, whereas magic heroes are weaker in the might department. Therefore magic should be made either less accessible to might heroes or more powerful for magic heroes, or preferably both. I'd suggest:

- make spells cost more spellpoints
- make mass spells separate from single target spells (e.g. 'slow' at level 1 and 'mass slow' at level 4).
- make all spell effects depend way more on spellpower. Spells that already do could depend on it much more drastically, i.e. with a higher coefficient or even, say, quadratically instead of linearly. Also, spells that have a constant effect (slow/haste/bloodlust etc.) could be changed to depend on spellpower as well (e.g. haste increases speed by 1 + [1 for each 5 points of spellpower]).

Even just increasing the amount of spells that are actually useful, moving spells to tiers that correspond better with their actual power, and balancing the spell schools to be roughly equally powerful would probably make a bit of a difference.

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BlackMagik
BlackMagik


Adventuring Hero
posted February 28, 2015 09:24 AM

@Nitramar

I've been thinking along the same lines. The problem, at its core, is that 'might' heroes can do anything that a 'magik' hero can when it comes to spellcasting. Combined with their advantages in close combat, why bother with "weaker" 'magik' heroes?

I guess I've just played too much traditional D & D and gotten used to the rules used there, where warriors are prohibited from using magik at all...'battle mages' are limited to low-to-mid level spells...and only true spellcasters can wield the most powerful spells.

Having said that, I would start by restricting 'might' heroes from being able to cast lvl 5 spells, and prohibiting certain magik items like the Magik Tomes.

As suggested, make the cost of casting powerful spells higher than is current which puts a bigger premium on Knowledge, where 'magik' heroes have the edge.

Quote:
make all spell effects depend way more on spellpower.


This is where you really separate the chaff from the wheat, so-to-speak. In Baldurs Gate, for instance, when a very high level mage or dragon casts a party-wide debilitating spell, you have little chance of dispelling it if your party mage is at a much lower casting level. And a powerful Lich casting, say, Abi-Dalzim's HW, can kill your party outright while a much lower level mage casting the same spell would not have such a devastating effect.

Making the effect of a spell, and not just it's duration, depend on spell power is a huge equalizer, IMHO.


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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted February 28, 2015 10:09 PM

BlackMagik said:
Having said that, I would start by restricting 'might' heroes from being able to cast lvl 5 spells, and prohibiting certain magik items like the Magik Tomes.
Making the effect of a spell, and not just it's duration, depend on spell power is a huge equalizer, IMHO.


First of all, lv 5 spells hardly ever play a big role in online games, so that is not the issue to balance. The powerful spells are in the lv 1,2 and 4 schools. And normally only lv 1 spells come into play.

Also the second suggestion has a disturbing flaw - it will make Knowledge even more trashed away than Power.


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kicferk
kicferk


Known Hero
posted February 28, 2015 11:11 PM

Well, first of all, lvl 5 spells play enormous role in online multiplayer. I have seen many, many games decided by implosion or summoning tons of elementals, and above all that lies dimension door.

(In here I assume I should say that the games were played on Heroes World league and are streamed regularly on Twitch)

Sorry, the only lvl 4 spells that come close in effectiveness of ending games are town portal and armageddon, which are both in my opinion below dd and implo respectivey.

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BlackMagik
BlackMagik


Adventuring Hero
posted February 28, 2015 11:46 PM

Quote:
Also the second suggestion has a disturbing flaw - it will make Knowledge even more trashed away than Power.


Please elaborate if you would...

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted March 01, 2015 12:18 AM
Edited by Ebonheart at 00:21, 01 Mar 2015.

kicferk said:
Well, first of all, lvl 5 spells play enormous role in online multiplayer. I have seen many, many games decided by implosion or summoning tons of elementals, and above all that lies dimension door.
(In here I assume I should say that the games were played on Heroes World league and are streamed regularly on Twitch)
Sorry, the only lvl 4 spells that come close in effectiveness of ending games are town portal and armageddon, which are both in my opinion below dd and implo respectivey.


kicferk said:
(In here I assume I should say that the games were played on Heroes World league and are streamed regularly on Twitch)

Let's be frank here Kicferk, most players aren't as good as the top 10 elite. But I have seen a fair share of end battles on the twitch aswell and while some does have lv 5 spells, most battles revolves around L1.


I have sadly been in very few games decided by Implosion, summoning elemental spells and sacrifice. DD is usually banned but I agree it is very powerful if it is not. But all games tends to be different from the previous one and so it is not a surprise that we might share different views on things, it would be awkward if we did not.

Berserking at expert level can be a game winner, and so can mass Prayer,mass Counterstrike etc. It all depends on the faction and hero.
But if you pardon me for asking, how do you manage to build a lv 5 magi guild before W3D2 (let alone visit with your main hero or a scholar and then get the scholar to the main hero in the treasure zone?(Cause bulding this in a secondary town also hangs on it having acess to L5 and the same issue with visiting it) since that's when most games ends for me.

As for your request BlackMagik. The reason Power will be in favor for Knowledge, is that even with a increased spell cost, artifacts, lv ups and shrines gives you quite a bit of knowledge to have in the end fight. Power will always be more handy to have due to the scaling effect in comparison to mana. The reason why I suggested mana regeneration after battles based on knowledge was to bring a better balance between the two stats.

However note that we are just brainstorming, there are always ups and downs with everything and in the end we are all just trying to improve the game.

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Orc
Orc


Known Hero
posted March 01, 2015 03:38 AM

hi,

I havent read all the posts yet, but I think Might & Magic hereos can play in different tactics. Magic heroes can push in quicker than might heroes. Might heroes need to muster their forces before they attack. in mid-game, when magic hero can cast spells enough times while might hero cannot (lets say lvl 10), then magic heroes in this case win. with damage spells.

so, it all depends on Spell damage/creature damage ratio

mean while, I will conitinue reading the first page :)

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kicferk
kicferk


Known Hero
posted March 01, 2015 09:36 AM
Edited by kicferk at 09:40, 01 Mar 2015.

Ebonheart, starting from your request, there are ways of getting spells that do not involve building mage guild. They are as simple as getting a pandora box in treasure area, or a tome of magic, or a blue hat, also in treasure area.

Also, many spells you mentioned are not really useful. Prayer needs you to have water magic, not a top 8 skill for me. Casting Counterstrike when you have expert air and likely haste looks like a very bad move. If you have enough army to smash enemy by counterattacks, then you should be able to smash him in meele too, otherwise counterstrike is not a game changer. Berserk is quite useful, but a badge of courage, a treasure class artifact, saves you. Plus you need fire magic, so similar problem to prayer.

132 is a quick game if played on XL. Ending game this early means you either rushed an opponent or took a few topes week 2 and are happy to kill him. Second is not realistic unless you play Jebus, first is risky and not preferred by most "top tier" players, who prefer scout wars ang getting stronger in treasure area.

And finally, about your note that level of skill influences the spells that are useful. Sorry, but you can't say a spell is imbalanced or underpowered because some people are not skilled enough to get and use it properly. It's like saying that pawns in chess are underpowered because proper usage of them is beyond a beginner. Or that a winning high jump technique is not useful, because amateurs jump differently. If you are talking about balance, you need to talk about people who play this game best.

Orc, what you say is simply not true, maybe except for Luna or Ciele. Magic heroes do need army early on as well, and they tend to run out of mana. And the final thing to observe is that might heroes have an army since the beginning, and this army is likely to grow fast, because going for creatures trumps going for capitol. Week 1 maybe you could compete vs might hero with top magic ones. Week 2 maybe Ciele could win a fight. But week 3 it becomes very very unlikely.

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted March 01, 2015 07:05 PM
Edited by Ebonheart at 19:06, 01 Mar 2015.

kicferk said:
Ebonheart, starting from your request, there are ways of getting spells that do not involve building mage guild. They are as simple as getting a pandora box in treasure area, or a tome of magic, or a blue hat, also in treasure area.

Yes but that requires you to get lucky and also for a lot of spells, have the right spell school already. Not to mention if the game rules allows the use of spells learnt from boxes and/or pyramids, tomes etc.
So if you claim these power house spells have a enormous effect on the game then I rest my case. For then I might aswell start closing my games just because I happened to get "Lots of Grand Elves" blocking my first route while my enemy got "throng of zombies". Stretching the luck element as you do (and even me to some extent, I admit that) might not be the most "common" game, but my hat is off in agreement to that the lv 5 spells can make a difference sometimes.
kicferk said:
Also, many spells you mentioned are not really useful. Prayer needs you to have water magic, not a top 8 skill for me. Casting Counterstrike when you have expert air and likely haste looks like a very bad move. If you have enough army to smash enemy by counterattacks, then you should be able to smash him in meele too, otherwise counterstrike is not a game changer. Berserk is quite useful, but a badge of courage, a treasure class artifact, saves you. Plus you need fire magic, so similar problem to prayer.

I understand that you feel biased to Earth Magic and the common Air Magic for Haste, but try to be a bit more open minded. Other spells do have a impact on the game, a spell a lot of players overlook is mass Curse. Against some factions it can have a devestating effect.
Berserk is indeed powerful but then the enemy needs to be lucky to get said artifacts, but luck does go up and down.
kicferk said:
132 is a quick game if played on XL. Ending game this early means you either rushed an opponent or took a few topes week 2 and are happy to kill him. Second is not realistic unless you play Jebus, first is risky and not preferred by most "top tier" players, who prefer scout wars ang getting stronger in treasure area.

Well I sadly lack the time to compete in the tournament, I had time for such things when I was younger but I spent all that time on World of Warcraft.
Then again you claim this is early? I am frankly surprised, cause I normally push into the treassure zone around M1W2D4-5 (Expert setting H). But I suppose that in a competitive players act a bit more carefully and enjoy the scouting tactic.
kicferk said:
And finally, about your note that level of skill influences the spells that are useful. Sorry, but you can't say a spell is imbalanced or underpowered because some people are not skilled enough to get and use it properly. It's like saying that pawns in chess are underpowered because proper usage of them is beyond a beginner. Or that a winning high jump technique is not useful, because amateurs jump differently. If you are talking about balance, you need to talk about people who play this game best.

We will dive into the common argument of how to balance a game. I understand and I also respect your opinion, just so we have that understood, for I do not consider one solution to come without problems. But after playing WoW and Halo/GoW on a high level I hands down say that balance made by the top will be good in some cases, but normally the common player base takes a beating because of this. To make an example: Hammer Burst in Gears of War. In the top level games this weapon became cheesy. Since a master player could basically take down the entire enemy team just 4 seconds after start, since the gun (if aimed at the head) downed a player with 2-4 shots. But the common players, could barely aim with this. It got nerfed, but that also made common players just trash it away and so the effect did fix the top games, but it rendered the weapon useless in 85% of all other matches by common folk. But I do agree that some small elements needs to be tuned by the top players, but it must be done with care.
But I also again want to point out that there is no "correct" opinion of how to do this, everyone is entitled to have their own.


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kicferk
kicferk


Known Hero
posted March 01, 2015 10:46 PM

Ebonheart said:

Yes but that requires you to get lucky and also for a lot of spells, have the right spell school already. Not to mention if the game rules allows the use of spells learnt from boxes and/or pyramids, tomes etc.



If you ban lvl 5 spells or the most common way of getting them then sure, they won't have an effect on your game. If you don't do it, whey will be way more useful than lvl 4 ones. Because getting good level 4 spells is just as tough as getting good level 5 ones.

Ebonheart said:

I understand that you feel biased to Earth Magic and the common Air Magic for Haste, but try to be a bit more open minded. Other spells do have a impact on the game, a spell a lot of players overlook is mass Curse. Against some factions it can have a devestating effect.
Berserk is indeed powerful but then the enemy needs to be lucky to get said artifacts, but luck does go up and down.



I understand that you try to be open minded, but saying the truth does not make me biased. The fact that earth and air are common choices does not make them overrated, it points to them being superior.

I maintain that curse is way worse spell than slow, shield or haste in vast majority of cases and competetive online games seem to affirm that. Plus, a thing about berserk, an implosion will cause more damage than berserk before, say, month 2.

Ebonheart said:

Then again you claim this is early? I am frankly surprised, cause I normally push into the treassure zone around M1W2D4-5 (Expert setting H). But I suppose that in a competitive players act a bit more carefully and enjoy the scouting tactic.



Unless you say what template it is the statement is of no importnce. I stated that I can believe in a game ending on 132 if it was Jebus Cross, but I would have hard time believing you can pull it off on, say, 8mm6a casually(unless map was L or smaller). I recall similar exagerration about farming demons in which you forgot to say that you had 2 demon dwellings around. Such things matter.

Moreover, getting into treasure zone is one thing, having enough army to take a dragon utopia or get those sweet artifacts lying around is completely different. Especially if you go for fire or water magic...

And about competetive players acting "more carefully" than you do. I can swallow you sounding somewhat proud when saying that air and earth are overrated and that you are the one who is open minded. But suggesting that you are better than the best while saying you didn't participate in any tournament sounds too fantastic to believe for me, sorry. It is also the only reason I am asking for some more details about the "normal" games you mentioned...

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted March 01, 2015 11:42 PM

Will be a lot to reply to but due to a coming exam this will probably be my last reply for a month or so.
You are correct that getting the more useful lv 4 spells can be a rough task.
It is not about saying the truth that makes you biased, it is the fact you without question trust the decisions just because a great deal of players does something. I agree that one can but don't ever let the opinion of the mass blind you. To make a quick parallel, during the arena season S3/S4 in WoW, a great deal of high ranked arena players praised the value of X class, but everything fell short because they never fully tested Y and Z classes, simply because they could not make those classes pass A situation, but forgot about B and C situations.

As for the curse spell, I have run so many simulation battles where I pit Curse vs X spell school and Y faction which showed curse will slash down the enemy more than using a slow, haste or shield spell.
You are once again correct that in many cases slow/haste provides perhaps the stronger edge, and you are also correct about implosion causing quite the absurd amount of damage with some good spellpower, just don't forget that you can use Berserking as a cast-turn-lockdown.

As for the map Kicferk, I personally enjoy Jebus L/XL. I have tested a lot of maps but I must say that Jebus clings well to me. I recall the demon farm post I made and you are right that the circumstances were truly in my favour there, but the fact that I pulled it off remains.

As for the utopias/difficult map fights, I rarely find those coming down to magic, but rather have you manage sacrifice your unwanted troops and keep your strong core unharmed.

As for myself Kicferk, I have never stated that I am better than the best, I hold my skills in a high esteem but even I can learn something new or face a new obstacle a more versed competitive has already learnt to deal with.
I am a open minded person, but that is due to my experience of playing in the top ranks in other games for a lot of years. It is very easy to agree with the crowd or your fellow elite players that certain suggestions are dismissed as pure snow. But if one has actually not tried said tactics out to their full extent, you risk missing out on a lot of good tricks and ruses to use against new opponents and situations.

The discussion in this thread is how you can improve magic heroes. However if we shall judge all suggestions based on how the top players will play/reason, we might aswell ban anyone who is not amongst the top 50 on the HoMM Tournament board. So please, even though there are casual gamers like myself and many others who aren't as fierce into the tournaments like perhaps you and others, we sadly still represent the larger playerbase here. It is one thing to adapt to the "online patterns" but to get all the details will be a mission impossible. After all we all want to enjoy this game and its improvements, not just the elite.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted March 01, 2015 11:54 PM

Ebonheart said:
but also forbidden in most online games when it comes to higher level spells


You are seeing things too much from a multiplayer's point of view. As Sal pointed the other day, they get all freaky about Mullich or Conflux but then shut their moths when it cames to Offense and Armourer specialists. This happens because everyone expects to be the lucky guy next game. It's the same thing here, a rule against spells is easily aproved cause eveyone plays for might and have no interrest in seeing magic heroes (Luna? Never saw no one even trying to use any other) proliferate.
If it was possible to really balance it, those points of view would change and so those freaky rules.  

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted March 02, 2015 12:13 AM

bloodsucker said:

You are seeing things too much from a multiplayer's point of view. As Sal pointed the other day, they get all freaky about Mullich or Conflux but then shut their moths when it cames to Offense and Armourer specialists. This happens because everyone expects to be the lucky guy next game. It's the same thing here, a rule against spells is easily aproved cause eveyone plays for might and have no interrest in seeing magic heroes (Luna? Never saw no one even trying to use any other) proliferate.
If it was possible to really balance it, those points of view would change and so those freaky rules.  


Both you and Salamandre got a very good point here. I am of the opinion that while Crag, Gundula and Tazar etc are the best choices, I dislike using them in online games just due to the fact that their specialties outperforms the specials of any other hero.
It might be true that certain views would change if the entire community truly wanted to sort this out, but I am reluctant to believe that it will make it balanced and smooth.

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BlackMagik
BlackMagik


Adventuring Hero
posted March 02, 2015 03:58 PM
Edited by BlackMagik at 16:00, 02 Mar 2015.

I would like to reboot the topic just a bit by asking this question:

In games of this type, what makes playing a spellcasting specialist fun, and what separates this class from others?

I would say that access to spells no other class can use, and the ability to cast spells with greater efficiency and effect than any other class would be at the top of the list.

In HOMM3, there is no distinction for either one of the above mentioned cases...a might hero has access to any spells a magik hero does, and can acquire the ability to cast them at the same efficiency and power that any specialist mage can.

IMHO, this is where any balancing efforts need to be directed. I don't know if any of the things discussed so far can even be implemented into the game, or if we are just creating a hypothetical 'wish-list'

If it were up to me, I'd start with several things:

a. Starting heroes should all have the same number of attribute points. As is, might heroes already get a jump start by having 6 attribute points vs 5 for magik users.

b.Restrict might heroes to lvl 3 spells max. This might mean reorganizing the spell schools so that certain spells can still be available. Town Portal would be an issue, and it's too bad the devs tied its use to a school of magik. A system along the lines of Morrowind's mage guild teleport pads would've been sweet

c. Increase the cost of casting spells This might mean giving an inherent "Mysticism" skill to heroes, or simply reworking the Mysticism skill period to regeneration levels that would actually be high enough to make the skill worth having.

d. Make every town capable of building lvl4 mage guilds, but only the Tower faction capable of going to level 5....we are talking about Wizards here, you know...those folks that make it their life's work to study spells

e. Increase the damage ratio of the Sorcery skill, and make it a specialty for more of the magik heroes One could possibly make it a multiplier (as in .5/1.0/1.5) to the Power attribute...

f. Remove the Orb of Inhibition from the game An artifact that makes an imbalanced situation even worse, IMHO...

I don't know enough about the inner workings of the game to be able to gauge if any of these changes are possible or what the 'side effects' might be, but I'm just using my experience with how other games create the distinction between mages and warriors, and what features make playing a mage desirable and fun...  

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TheGojoseon
TheGojoseon

Tavern Dweller
posted March 04, 2015 07:26 AM
Edited by TheGojoseon at 07:27, 04 Mar 2015.

Making the Tower the only town to get Level 5 magic guilds would be quite unbalanced, and make Expert Wisdom useless for all who don't conquer Towers. I think it's fine as is, with Tower getting the most spells (Library) and several towns (Conflux, Tower, Necropolis, etc) getting Level 5 spells.

It is true that magic heroes need a boost against might heroes (since might heroes can access magic more easily than vice versa). Maybe spells should cost less for magic heroes and more for might heroes? That would slow down might hero spellcasting to a predictable crawl. But at high levels might heroes would still be able to cast mighty Meteor Shower, Resurrection, etc.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted March 04, 2015 10:30 AM

I wrote a detailed post in the main Heroes 7 topic about it, it can be found here. I won't copy it here .

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revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted March 04, 2015 12:40 PM

The problem with mages in heroes 3 is basically that they get very crappy secondary skills and that the mage guild is too expensive to make proper use of it on templates other than jebus (and even there there is often many more efficient ways to spend cash than bulding lvl 5 mage guild)

Ironically, the best spellcasters are Battle Mages. Gundula can even surpass Crag Hack sometimes as she starts with Slow, might have little less A skill, but she benefits more from specialty.

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draco
draco


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 04, 2015 04:16 PM

If I could make a suggestion.

I would make two changes.

I limit magic schools to the level of your wisdom. You can only have basic Earth if you have basic Wisdom. You can't get the elements if you don't have Wisdom.

I would also decrease the likelyhood of Wisdom appearing for might heroes (force it to only appear every 6th level?), although this would need to be balanced.

If these changes were to happen, your might hero would not normally have expert earth or air until level 20ish. This means that they can't slaughter all the mobs on the map nearly as efficiently as opposed to a level 10 mage.

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BlackMagik
BlackMagik


Adventuring Hero
posted March 04, 2015 05:05 PM
Edited by BlackMagik at 17:12, 04 Mar 2015.

Quote:
Making the Tower the only town to get Level 5 magic guilds would be quite unbalanced, and make Expert Wisdom useless for all who don't conquer Towers. I think it's fine as is, with Tower getting the most spells (Library) and several towns (Conflux, Tower, Necropolis, etc) getting Level 5 spells.


Only because you are wedded to the idea that might heroes should be able to cast any spell a magik hero can In virtually any other game of this type that I can think of, there is quite a gap between spells a mage can cast, and those a warrior/mage can cast.

Getting one extra available spell per mage guild lvl still doesn't prevent a might hero from acquiring whatever those extra spells might be, rendering the 'Library' a very minor issue. Now if you wanted to make that extra spell per lvl something not available to any other mage guild....

Conflux already gets an important feature not available to other factions...namely the magik school; Necropolis gets a huge bonus from the Necromancy ability; and Tower gets......one extra spell per mage guild lvl that any other town hero can acquire by other means. Hardly important, IMHO.

@ Maurice

Interesting discussion with some great ideas but...how many of those could actually be incorporated into M3? Especially like the idea of a Military Academy. "A might hero you may well be, young Jedi, but learn your craft you must."  

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TheGojoseon
TheGojoseon

Tavern Dweller
posted March 04, 2015 11:27 PM

Frankly it just seems too limiting to allow only wizards to cast Dimension Door, Fly, etc. Nope. Too unbalanced imo. I'm all for differentiating between spells warriors and mages can cast, but it will have to be at least a bit fairer between mages and wizards. Of course, you could always *conquer* a wizard's town, but giving only them access to the spells first seems off. Just my 2 cents.

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