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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Magic heroes too weak?
Thread: Magic heroes too weak? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
kicferk
kicferk


Known Hero
posted March 04, 2015 11:39 PM

Well, if only wizards will be able to cast lvl 5 spells, then you will get a wizard to cast dd and a might hero to fight a final battle. Because, frankly, that is what might heroes are for...

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted March 04, 2015 11:52 PM
Edited by Maurice at 23:56, 04 Mar 2015.

BlackMagik said:
Interesting discussion with some great ideas but...how many of those could actually be incorporated into M3? Especially like the idea of a Military Academy. "A might hero you may well be, young Jedi, but learn your craft you must."  


Well, it will require some major redesign of the Might Heroes ingame. You're essentially scrapping the innate, passive bonus of adding Attack and Defense to the units and instead forcing them into a similar corner where Magic Heroes are now: as Stevie put it so eloquently, the corner where they have potential and through their potential, they provide tactical choices throughout battles being fought.

Military Academies would provide training in various Combat Techniques, randomly chosen like Spells in the Mage Guilds have always been. Military Academies can be expanded. I can at least define four different Military Strategies: Offense (melee), Defense, Artillery/Siege, Archery (essentially Ranged Offense) - essentially, they're the counterparts to the Magic Schools. A fifth one might be Warcries. Each should have its own Perks, and its own Techniques across various tiers. Once again, it shouldn't be a carbon copy of Mage Guilds and Magic Spells, but in effect it should be similar. Like I wrote, it lacks a resource (like Mana, through Knowlegde, for Magic Heroes), but has two strengths in the form of Attack and Defense (where Magic Heroes only have Spell Power).

The main feature of this is to bring the Might Hero out of the passive corner he has been in since the beginning, and give him an active role on the battlefield to manage the troops under his command. Through an increase in efficiency and troop management, they should be able to bolster their troops in ways that can go toe to toe with Magic Heroes who are flinging Spells left and right. By forcing them into an active role, you reduce the gap that has existed within the series for so long - making Magic Heroes viable just as well, instead of having Might Heroes as a no-brainer selection.

I would make it so that only Magic Heroes would be able to learn Wisdom - giving access to level 3+ Spells - and only Might Heroes would be able to learn Military Tactics - giving access to higher level Combat Techniques. What constitutes "higher level" in Combat Techniques is open for design, it doesn't necessarily have to have 5 tiers like Magic Spells.

TheGojoseon said:
Frankly it just seems too limiting to allow only wizards to cast Dimension Door, Fly, etc. Nope.


We're talking about future installments here, not Heroes3 . In the latest games, Dimension Door and Fly were absent, and Town Portal was severly restricted.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted March 05, 2015 03:01 AM

But it was a lot of fun to cast town portal mid battle though!
____________
Living time backwards

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BlackMagik
BlackMagik


Adventuring Hero
posted March 05, 2015 05:47 AM

Quote:
Frankly it just seems too limiting to allow only wizards to cast Dimension Door, Fly, etc. Nope. Too unbalanced imo. I'm all for differentiating between spells warriors and mages can cast, but it will have to be at least a bit fairer between mages and wizards.


The game is already unbalanced...in favor of warriors. That's why there are topics like this still ongoing. Restricting might heroes from lvl 4/5 spells is an attempt to level the playing field. Not saying it's the only/best way to accomplish this, but one that I would find acceptable. And what would you consider 'a bit fairer'?

Quote:
We're talking about future installments here, not Heroes3


Who knows, maybe sometime down the road the game-code for MM3 will become available and some programmer type with a passion for the game and a lot of free time can do a mod  

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kicferk
kicferk


Known Hero
posted March 05, 2015 04:31 PM

Game is unbalanced in favor of warriors because of the game type that is played in online multiplayer. There are some mage heroes that may well be way better main heroes than might ones on M or smaller maps, but they can hardly compete on XL. Likewise, it's very difficult to get a might hero be a secondary main with little army, when for mages it's natural. Or play a custom map when insane amounts of mana are required. Poor warriors indeed.

"Imbalance" works both ways. And all types of heroes have their uses. This particular imbalance is evident, because of the type of games that is popular, but if you say "ok, just restrict might heroes from using high level spells", you may(or may not) shift the balance to better in XL maps, but it will make mages better in every aspect.

Besides, such solution would lead to some exploits too. Like, getting a battlemage with stats of ranger or knight and using him as main. Same problem as before. Or using a might hero for main and tough fights and developing a secondary magic hero who can cast town portal and dd/fly.

For me it does not seem possible to make might and magic comparably useful in all situations. For one, I don't see how a warrior could break a Jebus guard on 114 without a spectacularly good map, but I know that with Luna it is achievable. Is that not an imbalance? Or how would warrior stand against Ciele on a meeting week1 on small map? You can't expect a perfect balance every time, but different heroes offer different options, which you learn to use as effectively as possible. It does not seem really wrong for me.

Cheers

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted March 05, 2015 07:55 PM

BlackMagik said:
maybe sometime down the road the game-code for MM3 will become available and some programmer type with a passion for the game and a lot of free time can do a mod  



Already done, there are plenty of wog mods which change magic power, spells characteristics, heroes classes. Basically you can do anything then test and see if is ok.  

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Orc
Orc


Known Hero
posted March 18, 2015 01:36 AM
Edited by Orc at 02:28, 18 Mar 2015.

I feel that having power modifying the effect of ability is very promising idea.

imagine some guy with great mind power creating impenetrable shield. kind of hard to imagine a barbarian or beast master do that. also, if you thing this will make knowledge useless, maybe u could move duration to knowledge, but i dont find that make sense id rather keep duration to power.

so i think shield would be something like 10% + spell power or somethin (could be 5% + 2 spell power but then at high spell power become like tazar lol)

having 1 attck per sp bloodlust and 1 def per sp for stone skin would seem quite good as well

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted March 18, 2015 08:44 AM

Orc said:
I feel that having power modifying the effect of ability is very promising idea.


I think so too as long as one also boosts the knowledge side. As it is right now, knowledge is set aside for power.

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Orc
Orc


Known Hero
posted March 18, 2015 03:23 PM

Ebonheart said:
Orc said:
I feel that having power modifying the effect of ability is very promising idea.


I think so too as long as one also boosts the knowledge side. As it is right now, knowledge is set aside for power.


The problem with knowledge lies in the fact that one cannot effectively use all his mana. Ideally, having the battle extending forever, or just long enough for the hero to use all his mana, will make it efficiency of knowledge 100%

however, since we cast 1 spell per round, using too your mana will require great number of rounds. so what we want so to make number of spells cast per round depend on the knowledge or mana points one have, to make him use as much mana as he can. we need some sort of model that mana cost or something, and make that as % of knowledge per round, i.e. if hero has 100 mana, then he can use 10 every round. or something like that.

I had the thought of modeling it in another way: maybe depending on spell level. so at knowledge X, one can cast 60 lvl 1 spells, 30 lvl 2, 20 lvl 3, or 15 lvl 4, or 12 lvl 5.

but then again, not all spells are in the correct level, (frost ring im thinking) so that needs to be balanced before we apply this



summoning elementals will still be better with higher power. The reason is that one stack of 40 is better than 2 of 20. chain  lightning on the other hand, will be more effective with knowledge. the reason for that is that its formula is Factor X power + Constant.

if there was no constant then they'd be the same, knowledge or power. I'd still go for knowledge in chain lightning.


but it does go as simple as this. we should then find a way of casting time or something: do we make hero able to cast each creature turn? do we make him cast now, and next turn effect comes? do make him cast all the stuff in same time? not so sure how to answer all these

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jivko
jivko

Tavern Dweller
posted March 19, 2015 02:39 PM

hello ppl i didnt read entire topic but here is how i can see easy to implement and mb a good nerf to might heroes so

1 knowledge = 5 mana for maight heroes

thier spells deal 3 times lower damage

and mass spells like slow/haste and so on they last 1 turn for each 3 spell power the might hero has.

i think still might heroes will be better but this is goin to make them harder time early game and i think magic heroes should have a clear advantage in the furst 1-2 weeks of the game.

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Orc
Orc


Known Hero
posted March 19, 2015 07:13 PM

jivko said:
hello ppl i didnt read entire topic but here is how i can see easy to implement and mb a good nerf to might heroes so

1 knowledge = 5 mana for maight heroes

thier spells deal 3 times lower damage

and mass spells like slow/haste and so on they last 1 turn for each 3 spell power the might hero has.

i think still might heroes will be better but this is goin to make them harder time early game and i think magic heroes should have a clear advantage in the furst 1-2 weeks of the game.


I believe these kinds of nerf wrong. Why do we nerf knowledge just on might heroes while they are already poor with mana? its just like saying we should nerf attack and defense for magic heroes.

If we want to make balance, then we have to make the primary skills balanced. If Attack and defense are more valuable for than spell power and knowledge, then what we should do is increase value of spell power and knowledge on the game so that they impact the game just as much as attack and defense. This is how balance is created.


Now about knowledge, in real time strategy games, spell caster replinish mana with time. This might be a little hard in heroes. one way to make mana replinish with time is to set 5 times in which hero replinish mana per day:
1-) at the beginning of each day
2-) at the end of every battle
3-) at each 15% of his movement
4-) mana replinishment is limited to 5 per day. i.e. if he moved 61% of his movement and then ended a battle then he should not regain any mana

what do you think about this?

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted March 19, 2015 08:08 PM

Orc said:

Now about knowledge, in real time strategy games, spell caster replinish mana with time. This might be a little hard in heroes. one way to make mana replinish with time is to set 5 times in which hero replinish mana per day:
1-) at the beginning of each day
2-) at the end of every battle
3-) at each 15% of his movement
4-) mana replinishment is limited to 5 per day. i.e. if he moved 61% of his movement and then ended a battle then he should not regain any mana

what do you think about this?


Your 2nd proposal I made earlier in the thread and also touched the subject of restoration of mana depending on the level of the knowledge stat. I personally believe the 1st and 2nd options are the best. Regeneration per movement can work, but can also backfire, for example if one has 2x battles close up ahead, and you need mana for both battles, and if the mana regeneration must come from X steps taken, then the player might fall short on the mana. Although a cap is needed to prevent a player from going from battle to battle with almost infinite mana. So for example 2-3 fights a day could restore mana after the combat.

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llVIU
llVIU

Tavern Dweller
posted March 19, 2015 10:21 PM

yea I dislike playing spell heroes. Spells are almost useless at start, and start is extremely important. Plus spells are unreliable, very unreliable. You can easily be stuck on a map without any way to regenerate your spell points, or just stuck with bad spells, or fight some monster that you cant use your spells.

they are very useful in big games near the end, but by that time, warrior heroes have no problem casting spells. no problem at all, and the knowledge of spell heroes by then is completely useless. who cares 500 spell points of 700.

but I'm only an average player, not an expert

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Orc
Orc


Known Hero
posted March 20, 2015 02:49 AM
Edited by Orc at 02:57, 20 Mar 2015.

Ebonheart said:
Orc said:

Now about knowledge, in real time strategy games, spell caster replinish mana with time. This might be a little hard in heroes. one way to make mana replinish with time is to set 5 times in which hero replinish mana per day:
1-) at the beginning of each day
2-) at the end of every battle
3-) at each 15% of his movement
4-) mana replinishment is limited to 5 per day. i.e. if he moved 61% of his movement and then ended a battle then he should not regain any mana

what do you think about this?


Your 2nd proposal I made earlier in the thread and also touched the subject of restoration of mana depending on the level of the knowledge stat. I personally believe the 1st and 2nd options are the best. Regeneration per movement can work, but can also backfire, for example if one has 2x battles close up ahead, and you need mana for both battles, and if the mana regeneration must come from X steps taken, then the player might fall short on the mana. Although a cap is needed to prevent a player from going from battle to battle with almost infinite mana. So for example 2-3 fights a day could restore mana after the combat.


I am aware of that proporsal of yours. I was actually just building up on your idea. What I am suggesting here is that hero regenerate if any of the those 4 things has happened, i.e. there shouldn't be just one way to regenerate spell points, by either of these will work.

and also, If I may build up on that, when hero does not move in a day, he receives bonus mana

so instead of just having it to be after battles, it can be after multiple events, and there is cap of the total that can be regained (which might as well depend on mystisism, it could be of use here)

so let's give it a bit of thought. I guess 10% each day and then 15% 20% 25% for mysticism or something would work nicely, wouldn't it?

Now there is another thing we need to consider: Intelligence secondary skill which increases mana capacity. Should regeneration depend on that or just on knowledge? Personally, I am thinking having intelligence secondary skill should not increase regeneration, but only increase the mana points simply because it will then overpower mysticism, giving "like 20% mana regeneration" (since his mana is doubled)
Edit: Rephrasing the skill now: the mana regeneration cap should be 1, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5 Multiple of knowledge, depending on mysticism skill.

anyway, this 10 to 25% is daily cap of the regeneration. so actually, 2% at beginning of day, and then all the way to 10% when he move


On a side note: what I was thinking actually is that time passes by as hero finish battles or moves/sleeps, and the hero regains his mind power,
so would also make since that if he rested and didnt move will regain mana.


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jivko
jivko

Tavern Dweller
posted March 20, 2015 01:57 PM

@orc i sayd its easy to implement,and u are wrong that might heroes have mana problems its not the truth.See usually u need 30 mana when u have mass spell haste/slow(or single target spell), and u need more when u get dd/fly/portal sometimes ressurection/blind and a few other spells , but by the time u usually get dd/fly/portal the important spells that actually cost mana its allrdy early w3 and u have visited atleast 1 tope and have plenty of artes so mana is not a problem and in early game w1-mid w2 to have 30 mana for 6 mass spells slow/haste is all u need in 95% of the games.Not to mention there is plenty of ways to refill mana , retreat in neutrals when u cleared important stuff allrdy , mana vortex and so on.

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted March 20, 2015 03:57 PM

jivko said:
See usually u need 30 mana when u have mass spell haste/slow(or single target spell)


In the end battle I find 10-12 (sometimes 15-18) mana to be enough. Course if one relies on lv 2 + spells then obviously one needs a bit more.

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BlackMagik
BlackMagik


Adventuring Hero
posted March 20, 2015 03:58 PM

I'd be in favor of using a scaled formula of some kind (using a heroes INT and current LVL, perhaps?) at the start of each new day.

What about actually making the Mysticism skill useful by increasing the number of points regenerated per day?

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Orc
Orc


Known Hero
posted March 23, 2015 01:58 AM
Edited by Orc at 01:59, 23 Mar 2015.

how about this: the mass haste/ slow should cost mana depending on stacks

Edit:
Sorry to double post, had something in mind: what do you think of making "some" archers to have attack skill depend on spell power, namely zealots, mages,  & titans?

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husham123
husham123


Famous Hero
Yes
posted March 23, 2015 12:09 PM

What's this all about ???
The game is called Heroes III of MIGHT AND MAGIC,so more exactly is a stupidity to say that a hero is not magic
But in my opinion,you could watch out for troops too,and for artifacts who would likely cast spells for you automatically

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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Famous Hero
posted March 23, 2015 02:43 PM

Magic Heroes are not too weak. With proper build and strategy you canwin game using both classes.

The best magic heroes, are ones who have sorcery specialty. Especially with Dungeon or Conflux.

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