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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: The bottom of everything
Thread: The bottom of everything This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT»
verriker
verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted June 29, 2015 10:10 PM

PROJ said:
i'm not sure what the apprehension is of providing evidence. If homm 3 is as great as you guys say, the evidence should be abundant


well PROJ, there is an old, wise saying: those who say, don't know, and those who know, don't say, lol
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 29, 2015 10:17 PM

Exactly, the evidence IS abundant, but as you choose to learn the game by watching streams, is doubtfully you can get why a player moves this hero here, why it takes a certain creature with, why it waits in turn x, and so on. And sorry, every strategy is math. In every game.

Prove us it's not.

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PROJ
PROJ


Known Hero
posted June 29, 2015 10:25 PM

Galaad said:
What more evidence do you need than a game which is still being played and modded to death even now at professional level with hota 15 years after its release?

Err...it's not being played at a professional level.  I don't think you know what professional means

there are plenty of games of questionable design being played that are as old or older than homm.  This is a classic ad populum fallacy.  It's also being played mostly by eastern europeans and russians, who play all sorts of wacky games for no discernable reason (world of tanks? really?)

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 29, 2015 10:27 PM
Edited by Galaad at 22:28, 29 Jun 2015.

I probably didn't formulate correctly. I didn't say hota was being played at professional level, I said the expansion that the hota team made has a quality which tops the original game from NWC.
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PROJ
PROJ


Known Hero
posted June 29, 2015 10:28 PM

Salamandre said:
Exactly, the evidence IS abundant, but as you choose to learn the game by watching streams, is doubtfully you can get why a player moves this hero here, why it takes a certain creature with, why it waits in turn x, and so on. And sorry, every strategy is math. In every game.

Prove us it's not.

Every strategy is not math.  Math is used in a lot of strategy games, but that is something completely different than what you are saying.  It is worrisome that you are arguing these points without having a firm grasp of basic strategy game design fundamentals.  

It would be a lot easier for you to provide demonstrable evidence.  I'm not sure why I'd invest thousands of hours in a seemingly broken game just to prove you wrong when there are much better games and better uses of my time

Considering your apprehension to providing anything but the most vague answers and your inability to understand basic strategy game design, I'm thinking you don't know what you're talking about.  Clearly you're emotionally invested in homm 3 being a good game and it's making your opinion very biased.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 29, 2015 10:30 PM

PROJ, what you seem to be obviously missing is that HOMM is NOT your everyday strategy game. It involves randomness, which seems to bother you by reading some of your posts. You consider it to be a flaw in game design, but the truth is it is part of the formula which made this game the success it had and still has nowadays.
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PROJ
PROJ


Known Hero
posted June 29, 2015 10:36 PM

Galaad said:
PROJ, what you seem to be obviously missing is that HOMM is NOT your everyday strategy game. It involves randomness, which seems to bother you by reading some of your posts. You consider it to be a flaw in game design, but the truth is it is part of the formula which made this game the success it had and still has nowadays.

randomness doesn't bother me terribly.  It's a combination of the magnitude of randomness, the presence of output randomness, and the fact that games take a very long time (on average) to complete.  If the games had low turnover (like a card game or something), randomness would be more acceptable.  But it's pretty weird to have that much randomness in a game that lasts 4-5 hours; you can win or lose after 4 hours due to bad dice rolls?

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PROJ
PROJ


Known Hero
posted June 29, 2015 10:40 PM

Anyways this is mostly just a reaction to homm 3 fans constantly snowting on the other games which imo did a lot of things better from a design standpoint.  I don't really care to argue much more about it, but if anyone has videos/examples of how homm 3 can promote strategic interactivity between players I would definitely watch and re-assess my position

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 29, 2015 10:48 PM

And I could just say the same to you from people just snowting on homm3 when they don't even know the game. Have you even played it?

IMO a great game is a game which passes the test of time and regarding the homm franchise h3 and h5 achieved that. Not h4 and h6.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 29, 2015 11:02 PM

We got a troll.

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Kicferk
Kicferk


Known Hero
posted June 29, 2015 11:40 PM

If you want some interaction feel free to search for M200 tournament on HeroesWorld, or any of its followups. You will still be noob once you see some decent players play M maps, but you will get your interactions

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Macron1
Macron1


Supreme Hero
posted June 30, 2015 11:15 AM

PROJ said:
But it's pretty weird to have that much randomness in a game that lasts 4-5 hours; you can win or lose after 4 hours due to bad dice rolls?

If you play 4-5 hours and loose, than randomness is no matter, but your hands are twisted.

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ebonheart
ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted June 30, 2015 12:22 PM
Edited by ebonheart at 12:22, 30 Jun 2015.

Macron1 said:
PROJ said:
But it's pretty weird to have that much randomness in a game that lasts 4-5 hours; you can win or lose after 4 hours due to bad dice rolls?

If you play 4-5 hours and loose, than randomness is no matter, but your hands are twisted.



One can argue that his skills probably need some polishing, however if one denies that luck is not a great factor in HoMM then one is quite the noob aswell.
The charm of Heroes has been that luck goes up and down - both for you and your foe. The challenge is to overcome it with skill and so balance it out that way. However certain things have greater influence on the game than others.

In my opinion there is only one thing that causes a enormous balance crack - creature dwellings on the map.
I once played a game where all dwellings on my side for tower was 3x Parapet Dwellings and 1x Golem Factory. While my opponent ended up getting 2x Roc nests, 1x Cyclops cave and 1x Behemoth crag.

The big issue with this is that it is very difficult to balance it out by adding in say more treasures, artifacts and other misc stuff for the player with the weaker creature dwellings.
Another small issue is the position of these dwellings on the map.
In this case my opponent had both his Roc nests within 1 day of traveling from the castle while my "beloved" gargoyles were stuck in the very corner of the snowy map with no roads nearby. The only complicated part for him was his Cyclops cave that was 2 days off the road near the treasure zone.

So not only does the dwellings give good advantage based on the lv of the dwell and the correspondence of the town selected, but also on where they sit on the map. But that's just my thoughts on the matter.

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Macron1
Macron1


Supreme Hero
posted July 03, 2015 04:20 PM

ebonheart said:

I once played a game where all dwellings on my side for tower was 3x Parapet Dwellings and 1x Golem Factory. While my opponent ended up getting 2x Roc nests, 1x Cyclops cave and 1x Behemoth crag.


Issue of map is not issue of randomness.

Typically i often don't take most dwellings at all to not waste time.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted July 03, 2015 04:57 PM

PROJ said:
But it's pretty weird to have that much randomness in a game that lasts 4-5 hours; you can win or lose after 4 hours due to bad dice rolls?

Until now I would say there is only a way to lose an Heroes III game if you survived for a couple of hours and that is: you are playing a time expires kind of map and you haven't been attemptive to that fact,  but yesterday I've found this (sorry, Oscar)

How NOT to play Homm III

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted July 03, 2015 06:52 PM

Oh my God....should I laugh or should I cry?
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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted July 03, 2015 08:28 PM

angelito said:
Oh my God....should I laugh or should I cry?

I think it is best if you learn how to do both! It is a great skill to have in life my friend.

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PROJ
PROJ


Known Hero
posted July 14, 2015 08:51 PM

Salamandre said:
We got a troll.

Yeah, sorry i know far more about multiplayer strategy games and game design than you.  snow me, right?

You don't even understand what 'strategy' in game design is.  You have consistently weird opinions that top players disagree with, and you're clearly emotionally invested in homm 3 not being crappy.  And now you don't know what a troll is.  

We got an idiot.

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted July 14, 2015 09:07 PM

PROJ said:
Salamandre said:
We got a troll.

Yeah, sorry i know far more about multiplayer strategy games and game design than you.  snow me, right?

You don't even understand what 'strategy' in game design is.  You have consistently weird opinions that top players disagree with, and you're clearly emotionally invested in homm 3 not being crappy.  And now you don't know what a troll is.  

We got an idiot.


Look, if many people acknowledge H3 to be the best in series, such a fact cannot be dismissed. H5 also did good, just that it has some things that it is up to people's preference (3D townscreens, for example). It is basically fun to play with a system, not knowing what you'll get, and make the best out of it.

The strategic part, well, has to be extensively used in campaigns. Played original and Armageddon's Blade and some had quite high difficulty. But people prefer single scenarios, likely because they have better re-playability than campaigns in general.

So to make a long story short, H5 is also a good game, but feels slower to play than H3. But still a better gameplay than H6 (or H7, for now).

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted July 14, 2015 09:34 PM

Proj, you didn't even play the game, as you admit, yet you show worthless arrogance by arguing with people who played it for 15 years, then insulting them.

This is what we commonly call a troll, or in a less polite manner someone without education. Now talk to a wall until someone else dare to respond.  
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