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| Thread: Skillwheel Theorycrafting |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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red_flag
Known Hero
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posted March 31, 2015 03:20 PM |
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Edited by red_flag at 15:55, 31 Mar 2015.
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Stevie said:
You must necessarily have 1 ability in order for the next mastery level to unlock.
Hi Stevie, may be I miss something  , but could you answer to my question?
Why on this screenshot we can't learn Master level of Air Magic skill, when we already have learned one ability of the Expert level? Is it hero class restriction or hero level restriction or some?
And why here I can't see any learned ability of the Expert level of Diplomacy skill, but already I have learned Master level of the skill?
Thanks!
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properkheldar
Famous Hero
Keeper of books
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posted March 31, 2015 03:45 PM |
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Will there be factionspecific perks in the different skills? Will there be perks that prerequsit several different skills (or perks from different skills) like in H5?
Always thought that gave the factions in H5 a nice diversity and made it fun to build different types of heroes.
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"Man spends his life in reasoning on the past, in complaining of the present, in fearing future."
- Antoine Rivarol
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 31, 2015 04:08 PM |
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properkheldar said:
Will there be factionspecific perks in the different skills? Will there be perks that prerequsit several different skills (or perks from different skills) like in H5?
Always thought that gave the factions in H5 a nice diversity and made it fun to build different types of heroes.
From what it appears, there isn't any cross-skill prerequisites, only intra-skill prereqs, and even then it's just that you need a Novice perk in order to get Expert, then to get an Expert perk to get Master, and then right now a Master perk to get a possible Ultimate.
As such, there isn't as complex a system for diversity, instead its a forced diversity due to each class getting 10 of about 30 skills. So, realistically, a Might Stronghold hero should be wildly different from a Academy Magic hero due to both drawing 10 skills from a total of 30, there may be very little both share.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted March 31, 2015 04:23 PM |
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Whoa Nelly!
That picture just made me realize that Stronghold hero won't have access to offense skilltree just the defense.
What the actual hell?
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 31, 2015 05:09 PM |
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red_flag said:
Why on this screenshot we can't learn Master level of Air Magic skill, when we already have learned one ability of the Expert level? Is it hero class restriction or hero level restriction or some?
Restrictions according to hero's class. That hero in particular would have a limited mastery up to Expert (so no Master) for the Air Magic, Earth Magic, Economy and Destiny skills.
red_flag said:
And why here I can't see any learned ability of the Expert level of Diplomacy skill, but already I have learned Master level of the skill?
Maybe perhaps because you don't really need to have an Expert perk, maybe you need only 2 attributes in total, irrespective of them being in Expert or Novice. I can't really recall. Things didn't work exactly like they were meant to anyway. For example the Ultimate should've required all 6 perks in Bloodrage to be learned, but in that picture it shows only 3. Oh, not to mention that you literally couldn't distinguish between learned and unlearned abilities. A real pain in this ass this system is.
properkheldar said:
Will there be factionspecific perks in the different skills? Will there be perks that prerequsit several different skills (or perks from different skills) like in H5?
For the first question, no. Each skill comes with a pre-established set of abilities for all classes. I don't know if that's the case for heroes in different factions cuz we didn't play with anything else but orcs, but why wouldn't it be?
For the second one, also no. The only prerequisites are from their respective skill, or "internal prerequisites" as I call them. No links in between skills like in Heroes 5.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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properkheldar
Famous Hero
Keeper of books
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posted March 31, 2015 05:15 PM |
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Dang it...
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"Man spends his life in reasoning on the past, in complaining of the present, in fearing future."
- Antoine Rivarol
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted March 31, 2015 05:25 PM |
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Stevie said:
For the second one, also no. The only prerequisites are from their respective skill, or "internal prerequisites" as I call them. No links in between skills like in Heroes 5.
i find this extremely relieving. that was just overly complex and annoying in h5 
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 31, 2015 08:05 PM |
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Except H5 did not feature a built-in skill wheel while H7 does. I don't see how it could have gone wrong with a bit more complex requirements when you can clearly see the skillwheel.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted March 31, 2015 08:23 PM |
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Elvin said:
Except H5 did not feature a built-in skill wheel while H7 does. I don't see how it could have gone wrong with a bit more complex requirements when you can clearly see the skillwheel.
True, but it was still overly complex and annoying because of it. personally i'm more than ok with internal only skill-progression or whatever we'll call it. would prefer it but i can't quite say why. to many inter-whatever skills feel like to much clutter.
still, it seems like a pretty good compromise between h6 and 5 and i think it might be my favourite so far. we'll have to wait and see though.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 31, 2015 10:42 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 22:43, 31 Mar 2015.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 31, 2015 11:21 PM |
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Elvin said:
Except H5 did not feature a built-in skill wheel while H7 does. I don't see how it could have gone wrong with a bit more complex requirements when you can clearly see the skillwheel.
Built-in? So each hero has their predestinated 10 skills that you can work on? Sounds pretty linear, I can understand if a few skills are restricted to some type/race of heroes but this will result in boring hero progress.
Or do you simply mean once you choose the skill everything is in front of you visually? If so, I prefer the simplicity.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 31, 2015 11:25 PM |
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i hate this system, so there's no way to learn certain skills because you're hero class is locked out of them? -.-
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted March 31, 2015 11:54 PM |
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Stevie said:
It's not as interesting without external prerequisites to me. It feels like a downgrade from Heroes 5 to say the least.
I concur.
The problem of H5 was that you had no way to know what prerequisites each perk had, or how to go towards a certain build, in game. You had to rely on the external skillwheel made by aurelian, minimizing the game...and that sucks big time.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted March 31, 2015 11:58 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 23:58, 31 Mar 2015.
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Storm-Giant said:
Stevie said:
It's not as interesting without external prerequisites to me. It feels like a downgrade from Heroes 5 to say the least.
I concur.
The problem of H5 was that you had no way to know what prerequisites each perk had, or how to go towards a certain build, in game. You had to rely on the external skillwheel made by aurelian, minimizing the game...and that sucks big time.
Or you can download a mod with an in-game skilwheel. I truly reccomend it. It makes creating builds so much easier. 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 01, 2015 12:14 AM |
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artu said:
Or do you simply mean once you choose the skill everything is in front of you visually? If so, I prefer the simplicity.
This. Skill-picking in H5 was not an easy affair unless you knew the requirements by heart but if you can look up the skillwheel it guides you by itself. All you have to do is decide on the abilities you are aiming for and the wheel will show you how to get there. I am not in favour of complex requirements but I would be happy if 2 of the 3 basic abilities unlocked up to 2 advanced abilities each.
Like the H5 logistics tree where scouting unlocked swift mind and silent stalker while pathfinding unlocked snatch and warpath. The way I picture it, some factions would have more advanced abilities in some skill than others or the potential to get advanced abilities with few to no requirements. It would make sense if a knight could get preparation(defense) easier than an offensive class like the barbarian. It would smilarly be reasonable if elves had more advanced abilities based on archery than let's say the dwarves. Little things like that.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 01, 2015 12:38 AM |
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Elvin said:
artu said:
Or do you simply mean once you choose the skill everything is in front of you visually? If so, I prefer the simplicity.
This. Skill-picking in H5 was not an easy affair unless you knew the requirements by heart but if you can look up the skillwheel it guides you by itself. All you have to do is decide on the abilities you are aiming for and the wheel will show you how to get there. I am not in favour of complex requirements but I would be happy if 2 of the 3 basic abilities unlocked up to 2 advanced abilities each.
Like the H5 logistics tree where scouting unlocked swift mind and silent stalker while pathfinding unlocked snatch and warpath. The way I picture it, some factions would have more advanced abilities in some skill than others or the potential to get advanced abilities with few to no requirements. It would make sense if a knight could get preparation(defense) easier than an offensive class like the barbarian. It would smilarly be reasonable if elves had more advanced abilities based on archery than let's say the dwarves. Little things like that.
Completely agree with you here, Elvin. With the current implementation, there is room for so much interesting improvements, it's a shame they missed the opportunity for now. Maybe in an expansion, otherwise we'll have to wait for either mods or Heroes8.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 01, 2015 01:03 AM |
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How much can you count on expansions to fix the vanilla? They have to work on the mechanics, bugs and balance and also ship another faction. I wouldn't bet system overhauls like changing the skillwheel would happen.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted April 01, 2015 01:05 AM |
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It depends of the size of the expansion, and the time given to Limbic (no other plz).
TotE was huge.
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castiel_789
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 01, 2015 08:43 PM |
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Elvin said:
All you have to do is decide on the abilities you are aiming for and the wheel will show you how to get there. I am not in favour of complex requirements but I would be happy if 2 of the 3 basic abilities unlocked up to 2 advanced abilities each.
I second that. I fail to see why variety should be that complex if you have an in-game skill wheel. Adding just a tad more would just make that difference.
Maurice said:
Completely agree with you here, Elvin. With the current implementation, there is room for so much interesting improvements
A hero of the same faction and class can still be similar if a certain build prove to be the most viable in the long run. Even though you can take all the perks in one skill I’m still not convinced it will create the variety the ‘‘advanced perks’’ dynamic had. Still, I got to admit that they fixed the ultimate issue of forcing down a certain build opening up room for variety and completely agree with you here Maurice. Let's hope this is not the final version of it.
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celiton
Hired Hero
Thinking before doing
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posted April 02, 2015 08:53 PM |
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Hello,
I got an idea on how would skillwheel work. It would be a universal skillwheel for all factions and all classes.
Here I show the core idea of the magic branch, which is divided into four types of magic: death, chaos, nature, life (inspired by H4) while the death and the chaos ones are being developped.
There are secondary skills, where some of them can be mastered at various levels and also there are some terciary skills which does not allow you to choose all the options.
I have added two special skills, which requires some previous skills at various levels.
All is listed below the picture. Some of those skills are inspired by certain spell. In my opinion, they would be quite handy to have them like skills, not just spells.
Also, racial skills are included in some of the magic types. Having them also enable to open some additional perks.
So here is the skillwheel:
[url=http://i.imgur.com/EkctggQ.png] [/url]
Here are the descriptions:
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Magic of death – allows the hero to learn death spells, grants the hero with Animate dead spell. Animated creatures depend on the skill’s level
 (BASIC) – the weakest core creature only, death spells lvl 1, 2
 (ADVANCED) – all core creatures, death spells lvl 3
 (MASTER) – all elite creatures, death spells lvl 4
 (GRANDMASTER) – (necromancers only) – champion creature
Necromancy (Necropolis heroes only) - Hero raises a number of undead creatures equal to a percentage of strength of a defeated army
 (BASIC) - 10% of a defeated army as Skeletons
 (ADVANCED) - 15% of a defeated army as Skeletons and 5% as Ghosts
 (MASTER) - 20% of a defeated army as Skeletons, 10% as Ghosts and 5% as Vampires
Occultism – grants mass effect on death spells (depending on selected options), doubles their cost and then reduces it by:
 (BASIC) - 0%
 (ADVANCED) - 10%
 (MASTER) - 20%
(only two options available)
o Mind Control – Mass slow and Mass confusion
o Torture – Mass decay and vulnerability
o Malediction – Mass weakness and suffering
Animateness – increases the power of spells: Animate dead, Vampiric touch and Aura of Fear
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Magic of chaos – allows the hero to learn chaos spells
 (BASIC) –lvl 1, 2, hero is granted with Firebolt (pyromancers only)
 (ADVANCED) –lvl 3, hero is granted with Fireball (pyromancers only)
 (MASTER) –lvl 4
 (GRANDMASTER) – (pyromancers only) – hero learns a random spell of lvl 4
Pyromania – increases the power of all spells connected with fire, expands the area of the spells Fireball and Inferno
Mana drain – allows hero to take enemy’s mana without claim of keeping it
 (BASIC) – 5 mana points
 (ADVANCED) – 10 mana points
 (MASTER) – 20 mana points
Chaotic mirror – every chaos spell casted on hero’s army is reflected on random enemy troop by:
 (BASIC) – 15%
 (MASTER) – 25%
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Wizardry – randomly increases the power of spells up to:
 (BASIC) – 5%
 (ADVANCED) – 10%
 (MASTER) – 20%
Metamagic (Academy heroes only) – allows a hero to combine two learned spells with
 (BASIC) - 30% power for each
 (ADVANCED) - 40% power for each
 (MASTER) - 50% power for each
Mana regeneration – doubles mana regeneration
Scholarship – reducer cost of all spells by 20%
Enchantment – gives the hero extra spell points and increases spell point recovery
 (BASIC) - +10 spell points, +2 spell points recovered per day.
 (ADVANCED) - +15 spell points, +4 spell points recovered per day.
 (MASTER) - +20 spell points, +6 spell points recovered per day.
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Special abilities
Undead eternal
requirements: Necromancy (master), Animateness, Wizardry (advanced)
- All animated creatures are kept in the army after battle
Mana theft
requirements: Mana drain (master), Mana regeneration, Wizardry (advanced)
- 35% of spell’s cost is paid by enemy (either hero or creature with mana, if there are any)
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Thanks for every feedback!
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