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| Thread: What Is The Perfectly Balanced Creature Specialty? | |
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Orc
Famous Hero
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posted March 29, 2015 07:37 AM |
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Edited by Orc at 08:02, 29 Mar 2015.
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What Is The Perfectly Balanced Creature Specialty?
Hello guys,
I am planning to make some modifications to creature hero specialty. I have a little idea how to go about it, but putting the scripting issues aside for now, I want to know what is the most balanced. Better to know exactly where I'm heading before I start. I gave it many many thoughts, and this is what I have in mind so far:
Proposal 1:
Similar to original working, except that it is amplified:
Stat Gain = 20% X Unit Stat X Hero Level / Unit level (and after all this it is rounded up)
Level 1 Units Excluded From This Proposal
The idea came from noting that from level 2 onwards, units gain Roughly 3 stats per level. Level 2 have around 6, level 3 around 9, ..., level 6 near 18
Example: wolf Raider
Attack Bonus = 20% X 7 X 9 / 2 = 6.3 ~~ 7
Defense Bonus= 20% X 5 X 9 / 2 = 4.5 ~~ 5
Example 2: Griffins will gain 0.6 stat each hero level
Now the the disadvantage of this proposal is that the state gain differ a lot between some units. In fact, as the unit gets higher in level, the stat gain generally gets lower. The table Below Shows the gain values calculated from this model, for all units.
The table below shows the gain per level for each unit.
The values for gain significantly deviating from 0.6 stat gained per hero level has been highlighted with yellow. Archers where highlighted with cyan
Some of the deviations may be justified: Pegasus for growth, Zealots for melee penalty, Gorgon for high defense, Cavalry for speed gain which turn into damage.
Worth Mentioning but difficult to justify are:
1-) Dendroids: 0.36 attack 0.48 defence per hero level You might say that it is justified by the + 1 speed of dendroid (it only has 4 becoming 5 is much different than dread knights going from 9 to 10, one might say)
2-) Some level 2 units gain 0.7 slightly deviated above 0.6
3-) Scorpicores only 0.533 attack and 0.467 defense.
4-) Monarch Wyverns gain even less than that, 0.467 Attack and 0.467 Defence per hero level. A candidate for the worst gain in this proposal. None the less, still much better than default gain set by HOMM3 designers 
5-) Note that Griffins, Cerberus, and Serpent Flies gains: overall stat gain is the same, but distribution between attack and defense differs.
6-) Ballista will gain as much as medusa: 0.5 to both stats, and Cannon will gain 0.667 attack and 0.333 Defense per level.
The next proposal tries to fix these issues.
Proposal 2: Deviation Dependent Gain
Attempting to remedy the disadvantages of the first proposal, I re-thought the whole idea, and tried to identify exactly which number to. To estimate an acceptable number of gain, I compared it some other hero specialties:
1-) offense specialty: when expert, hero gains +1.5% damage percent to melee damage output. 10 levels will give 15% increase, equivalent to 3 Attack points increase.
Therefore, each level is equivalent to adding 0.3 attack points to all melee units.
Typically, 5 melee units are present, and therefore it can be ok to say total gain of 1.5 attack points. Surely, one can calculate that more accurately by considering the level, but it doesn't seem a necessity to me (calculated offense benefit for stronghold using normal model and level dependent model got same result was roughly same)
2-) Archery specialty gives 2.5% increase in ranged damage output for expert archer. Therefore, each level increase attack skill by 0.5. Now, often, number archers in the faction is 2. Thus, archery specialty, following the same logic above, gives about 1 attack skill point. Also note that range attack is more valuable in itself, compared to melee, (wait this is my opinion, or is it less than offense just because of higher level of archers)
3-) Armorer skill specialty: Although it becomes a little more tedious in here, but assuming same attack and defence rating of both sides, you can roughly assume that Armorer gives + 6 defence and Armorer specialty gives + 0.3 defence per level. Now this does not only apply to 5 or 2 units, but rather to all 7 units, hence giving bonus of about 2.1
Again, all of the above is just estimating way of thinking to give me an idea as what is a good increase rating
From the above three different specialties, I came to the conclusion that 1.20 increase in stats should be ok. First I thought that offense is most representative in this case. Adding to that the fact that concentrating the stats increase in one unit is better than distributing it, meaning our increase value should be slightly less than 1.50: this is why 1.2 will do good.
Now this does not mean +0.6 attack + 0.6 defence, but amount depending on the ratio of the unit attack and defence to the total stats of the units.
Stat gain = 1.2 X Particular Stat / Sum of stats
Example 1:
Crusaders have 12 attack and 12 defence. Since they are equal, Sorsha will increase both their attack and defence by + 0.6
Griffins have similar case.
Crusaders Bonus = 1.2 X 12 / 24 = 0.6 (for both attack and defence)
Same goes for Griffins and Monarchs
Example 2:
Archers have 6 attack and 3 defence. Attack is double the amount of defence, therefore: +0.8 attack + 0.4 defense (the sum of them is still 1.2)
Attack Bonus = 1.2 X 6 / 9 = 0.8
Defence Bonus= 1.2 X 3 / 9 = 0.4
Sum = 0.8 + 0.4 = 1.2 (this can be used to calculate one bonus knowing the other)
Example 3:
Cerberus have 10 attack and 8 Defense.
Attack Bonus = 1.2 X 10 / 18 = 0.67
Defence Bonus= 1.2 X 8 / 18 = 0.53
Example 4:
Serpant Fly: 8 Attack 10 Defense
Attack Bonus = 1.2 X 8 / 18 = 0.53
Defence Bonus= 1.2 X 10 / 18 = 0.67
(remember what we noted in proposal 1?)
Example 5:
Mighty Gorgon: 11 Attack 16 Defense
Attack Bonus = 1.2 X 11 / 27 = 0.49
Defence Bonus= 1.2 X 16 / 27 = 0.71
Doing this for all the units, we construct the table below
Notes & Amendments :
1-) second proposal can apply even to level 1 units
2-) it seems to me that proposal 1 fits for champions. Maybe make proposal 2 for all but champions take 0.53 bonus to both attack and defence but compensate that for speed bonus each 10 levels (1, 11, 21, etc)
What do you think so far? Is this balanced enough? Do you have better idea than this? share it please
Lastly, thanks to all who discussed this with me before, publicly or privately.
Edit: in hindsight of what is written above, and taking a second look at armorer and offense, it might make more sense to have defence bonus greater than attack bonus for creature specialists, especially non archers.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted March 29, 2015 07:54 AM |
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Some points:
- There is no Medusa sepialist yet
- All this analysis only proves that creature specialties are unabalanced. Why just not to adapt H5 system, with creature geting +1 to attack and defense per 2 levels of the hero? This is perfectly balanced for everyone and actually meaningful.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 29, 2015 08:28 AM |
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HoTa team, who COULD do it, didn't do it. WoG scripters, who could do it too, didn't do it. Just to show how sensitive is the balance issue, you think is okay then everyone else has another vision. Not worth the work, and anyway, to be able to script this, you will spend probably one year at least to learn the basics. My two cents.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted March 29, 2015 08:35 AM |
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Quote:
WoG scripters, who could do it too, didn't do it. Just to show how sensitive is the balance issue,
I don't think that any WoG scripter was ever concerned about balance issues
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 29, 2015 08:39 AM |
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I mean they have the tools to do it. If we had at least 10 people agreeing on one alone idea, I am sure someone would try it. But you see it right here, someone proposes a vision, then second reply proposes radically something else.
In the meantime, russian players still spend 10 hours day playing online, without carrying about any unbalance.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JotunLogi
Known Hero
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posted March 29, 2015 12:05 PM |
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always worth trying- without testing it is impossible to predict even when looking at the whole work. New abilities and some changes to existing ones guarantee some fresh changes and give more options if made properly. Then adding proper statistics should be easier
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Orc
Famous Hero
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posted March 29, 2015 01:18 PM |
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Edited by Orc at 13:21, 29 Mar 2015.
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Salamandre said:
Just to show how sensitive is the balance issue, you think is okay then everyone else has another vision. Not worth the work, and anyway, to be able to script this, you will spend probably one year at least to learn the basics. My two cents.
1-) I think idea of designers was not to make heroes equally strong. I get this impression from Tazars biography
2-) Lets see that vision. they can share. and about that, I saw wog script found HP+dmg a bit too powerful (any increase in damage is kind of multiplicative with ttack, small units big deal)
3-) dont worry about that. If its right, I'll go for it
Warmonger said:
I don't think that any WoG scripter was ever concerned about balance issues
!!!
Salamandre said:
In the meantime, russian players still spend 10 hours day playing online, without carrying about any unbalance.
I'd do it for myself anyway
anyway,
I'd appreciate if you guys proposed alternative if u thought might be better or chose 1 or 2
I think should have just made it a poll maybe :/
proposal 1 or 2 or other
can some moderator do that, please? (oh I dont want to start another thread all over)
regarding proposals
although I feel 2 has many avanteges, 1 still has its good sides. 1 seems better for arches + naga + vamp + no retals
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 29, 2015 01:53 PM |
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Who will propose alternatives? Guys going for capitol first like we got a bunch here lately?
For such changes you need expert players advices, those who can fight their way with day 1 army so they know how would look such creatures specialists. But good players do not care much about anyway, in multiplayer things balance themselves, either via agreements or templates design. And in single, the so called balance does not interest many it seems.
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JotunLogi
Known Hero
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posted March 29, 2015 02:11 PM |
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expert players are just 1% or even less of the whole fanbase. Their advices could be useful but all depends how deep the changes will be and what exactly would be different. So they would be better as some betatesters. Besides, a person with a good vision that being aware of meta and game mechanics can do quite well on his/ her own 
in single player it is still important cause some creatures like reptillon, gnoll or demon (even counting demon farming tactics) are just not very fancy stats so even some minor abilities would be apprieciated in order to vary the game
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kicferk
Known Hero
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posted March 29, 2015 04:00 PM |
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Ok, I can give you my impression about re-balancing creature specialists.
The problem with speciality in creature is, that you either make it too strong or too weak, there is no middle ground.
Suppose that you go for a boost strong enough to be commpetetive to, say, Hack's offence, for swordsmen. Then Sorsha will be a viable choice for main hero for Castle, no matter the map. But, if you manage to get 1 or 2 swordsmen dwellings in your starting zone then Sorsha becomes ridiculously overpowered.
On the other hand, if you go for a weaker boost then you make such heroes reliant on random map generator, which may choose not to give any dwellings of swordsmen, just 3 of archers.
I hope you can see what I mean. But it is only half of the problem. The second part is that specialities are not the most important part of hero. Skill trees and stats distributions are. That is why Neela is considered average despite her fantastic speciality. That is why barbarians are among the best mains for any town.
All in all, I don't think the idea is worth pursuing, as any balance you achieve is still flawed by skill trees and stats. And I don't think it is doable anyway, as random maps can render the speciality either much too weak or much too strong.
And in any case, there are some creatures that are way easier to get than others. Wyverns, demons and skeletons all have their specialists. If you change the general rule for specialization, then these guys will be most affected, and quite possibly they will outshine their competition.
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Orc
Famous Hero
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posted March 29, 2015 04:19 PM |
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kicferk said:
I hope you can see what I mean. But it is only half of the problem. The second part is that specialities are not the most important part of hero. Skill trees and stats distributions are. That is why Neela is considered average despite her fantastic speciality. That is why barbarians are among the best mains for any town.
And in any case, there are some creatures that are way easier to get than others. Wyverns, demons and skeletons all have their specialists. If you change the general rule for specialization, then these guys will be most affected, and quite possibly they will outshine their competition.
but specialties armorer sorcery offense logistic are nice specialties to have.
as for wyverns and demons, they are weaker than their equi level counterparts. As for skeletons, I do intend to make it slightly weaker than others. Although my thought about upgraded and not upgrades was something like: small guys get % of the upgrade
so
Example 7
Swordsman 10 attack 12 defense
Attack Bonus = 1.2 X 10 / 24 (total of crusader) = 0.5
Defense bonus= 1.2 X 12 / 24 = 0.6
so he gain slightly less attack than crusaders.
Same calculations go for skeletons compared to skeleton warrirors
Skel bonus will be 0.5 attack and 0.4 defense (before nerfing)
I will modify first post now to clarify this.
About it being overpowered, umm, well my thought was something like: since wolf riders just keep dying with crag, I'd just let them with their specialist so they dont die.
Your point is completely valid though. how to go about it?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 29, 2015 04:23 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:36, 29 Mar 2015.
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Actually, WoG people did do it. There is already a script that gives extra boost to hero specialties and I regularly use it. I think the original boosts are not significant enough. The only problem with it is, spell specialists sometimes randomly cast their spell during battle without spending any mana. That is all fine with things like Prayer or Stone Skin but offensive spells interact with other spells such as Blind and ruin your tactics. I wish there was some way to script not to shoot balistas, tower arrows, auto-spells at blinded creatures.
(Btw, my mod has a Medusa specialist and she's cool. )
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 29, 2015 04:32 PM |
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Orc
Famous Hero
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posted March 30, 2015 07:56 AM |
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I saw the Specialty boost before. I didnt like how damage addition worked initially, but apparently I didnt know how it exactly worked. actually its good now XD
what I didnt not like in the specialty boost though is the random magic casting, meh...
its not per round, its per unit turn. Having 7 units almost guarentess a cast
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husham123
Famous Hero
Yes
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posted April 03, 2015 01:42 PM |
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Awsome,i might say,but couldn't others do it before ?
To balance the units is very usefull for multiplayer gaming.
I like playing games in multiplayer,but at all the times,i have problems because of those creatures witch are stronger or weaker than my normal creatures :/
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted April 05, 2015 01:44 PM |
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The thread is not about balancing units, it's about balancing hero specialities.
"Others" didn't do it before because, 1) there is no obvious way to go, 2) the imbalance is not big, 3) rebalancing takes time and tools.
"Creatures that are stronger or weaker than my normal creatures"... The game is supposed to be diverse, it's not individual creatures that are supposed to be balanced, it's the factions.
Other than that, please use spaces(" ") after any interpunction signs("." or "," for start).
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husham123
Famous Hero
Yes
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posted April 05, 2015 03:07 PM |
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Kicferk said:
The thread is not about balancing units, it's about balancing hero specialities.
"Others" didn't do it before because, 1) there is no obvious way to go, 2) the imbalance is not big, 3) rebalancing takes time and tools.
"Creatures that are stronger or weaker than my normal creatures"... The game is supposed to be diverse, it's not individual creatures that are supposed to be balanced, it's the factions.
Other than that, please use spaces(" ") after any interpunction signs("." or "," for start).
If this topic is about balancing heroes specialityes, not creatures, then i'd better shut up.
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Orc
Famous Hero
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posted April 14, 2015 06:58 PM |
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I think the only thing this has to do with creature imbalances is that while designing the specialty, we have to keep in mind these creature differences of Dmg, and growth (im thinking Pegasus here). Mission would be something like "balance creature specialties despite creature imbalances"
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