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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 27, 2019 08:21 PM |
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Gidoza
Famous Hero
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posted March 27, 2019 08:35 PM |
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magnomagus said:
I don't see why suddenly shooter tiers need to be so different from each other one of them ends up being melee.
Why not?
The base tier is melee - keeping one of them melee follows more natually than a ranged unit would.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 27, 2019 10:16 PM |
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magnomagus said:
I don't see why suddenly shooter tiers need to be so different from each other one of them ends up being melee.
Can you please make an argument to pick Titans over Storm Lords now? You read what I put in their comparison.
Titan is essentially melee. Ranged (call lightning, which does zero damage to air-resistant creatures) is a rudimentary plan until the fight gets real. All his stats (along with all the mini artifacts which are the hallmark of the faction) are going down the drain as long as he is using call lightning. So, you really cannot call the Titan a shooter as it is.
Storm Lord is the real deal. Not only he is a real shooter, as in the best shooter in the whole game, he has the storm to boot.
What I've been arguing is make them both useful and balanced. Titan should be the real (albeit a bit more fragile) shooter which can never be blocked with his call lightning. And, so what he shoots lightning from his hand, and when he's blocked, from the sky. He shoots lightning, period. You can never stop him from shooting lightning. That's his signature move. The other unit would be the guy to call storms and stomp on you when you're in range. Storm disrupts and prepares the opponent for friendly assault. It's the area attack Elvin is talking about. Give him the Storm Bolt ability (from Thunder Thanes) as well if you want, to strike once a battle.
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Lilt
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 27, 2019 11:21 PM |
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Edited by Lilt at 23:49, 27 Mar 2019.
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Call Lightning seems really redundant for a normal shooter though. The Storm is an area of effect ability that contrasts really nicely from the normal single-shot. Both are strategically useful in most battles, just like with Arch Mages. With call Lightning, it would much more rarely be useful to use.
The Titan is melee, with an ability to use call lightning if it wants to hang back rather than charge forward. If you have to buff it to make it more distinct and competitive, I'd hope that there would be another way than making the other unit less fun.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 27, 2019 11:41 PM |
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Quote:
Can you please make an argument to pick Titans over Storm Lords now? You read what I put in their comparison.
any possible issue related to usefulness and balance can be fixed with numeric changes and doesn't require any swapping of abilities.
and you are wrong about mini artifacts, I don't care to explain since I know you get there by thinking a bit longer.
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Lilt
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 28, 2019 12:05 AM |
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Edited by Lilt at 00:10, 28 Mar 2019.
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Quick question for anybody,
<DamageIncrease>0.025</DamageIncrease>
<DamageIncreaseCap>4</DamageIncreaseCap>
<DamageDecrease>0.025</DamageDecrease>
<DamageDecreaseCap>0.25</DamageDecreaseCap>
Does this mean with enough defensive advantage, a 75% damage reduction is achieved? I looked it up in the manual and the provided chart stops at 0.4, but attack also stops at 2.5 (rather than 4).
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted March 28, 2019 08:51 AM |
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted March 28, 2019 09:48 AM |
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thGryphn said:
Titan is essentially melee. Ranged (call lightning, which does zero damage to air-resistant creatures) is a rudimentary plan until the fight gets real. All his stats (along with all the mini artifacts which are the hallmark of the faction) are going down the drain as long as he is using call lightning. So, you really cannot call the Titan a shooter as it is.
First lets make it clear. As a T7 unit titan is a good damage dealer and you want him to as frequently as possible.
If you make Titan-A pure melee and Titan-B pure shooter (Shooting + Lighting), you will make:
- the average damage output of Titan-A much bigger than Titan-B because he simply would not be able to hit as often.
- The average survivability of Titan-A will be better than that of Titan-B too, because Titan-A can use Lighting in melee range to mitigate retaliation, which is a great deal.
The way the titans are currently working is great because it gives great tactical choice depending on the opponent your are facing as follows:
- Against defensive builds (paladin/engineer) one would like to pick the Titan-A (melee) so he can penetrate defense with Lighting and at the same time use the buffed stats to protect his own archers. Using Call Lighting gives him additional survivability in melee besides the 20 extra HP.
- Titan-B (shooter) is good against glass cannon builds that does not have tough units to block the titan for a long time. A few shooting attacks of the titans can turn the wave of the battle. The shooting titan also forces low defense builds to go forward and focus him. Serves like a taunt in some way.
Note: I believe Call Lighting is not reduced/countered by any resistances. It may be called "Lighting" but in fact it does pure unfiltered physical damage.
Besides the technical reasons mentioned I also agree with Magno's way of seeing the lore.
P.S. Mini artifacts are not that important for titans as they serve small percentage of their stats compared to the benefit of low tier units. Probably the best Minis for them are Initiative, Morale and Luck.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 28, 2019 10:49 AM |
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Initiative, defense and luck easily  Btw I'm pretty sure call lightning can be resisted. And since the storm is resisted by magic-immune units, call lightning should be the same. Fun fact, there is a seemingly unrelated week that boosts call lightning. Something about fire I think? Makes no sense but feels so good to see it in action.
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azalen
Responsible
Known Hero
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posted March 28, 2019 11:19 AM |
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Edited by azalen at 11:27, 28 Mar 2019.
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dredknight said:
Note: I believe Call Lighting is not reduced/countered by any resistances. It may be called "Lighting" but in fact it does pure unfiltered physical damage.
Yeah, I can tell you from experience that the Lightning Resistance Ring doesn't work against Call Lightning. Titans are the #1 worst gatekeeper stack (worse than Collossus) to get past w/o losses.
Isn't there a 3rd way to use Titans? A Seer build emphasizing Tactics, speed/init artificer artifacts, Kshatra multi-hit, March of Golems, and Titans. I would try it with Razzak maybe. It would be kind of of a weird Sylvan alpha-strike build with Light Magic support. Can't say that I've ever tried it, but I've thought about it.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 28, 2019 12:31 PM |
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One of the titans could be made mechanical to synergize with march of the golems, artificial glory and gremlin repair(but no regen/rez) but 1) it would be weird if one titan was organic and the other mechanical 2) it would be a rather niche choice? Unless march is easy to get for might class, I don't remember.
And tbh gargoyles look a better target for mechanical. Though repairable elemental gargoyles might be a little cheap.
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E1ChuRich
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 28, 2019 02:54 PM |
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I gotta tell, on my first game with Academy, in mid/late game when I upgraded Giants to Titans and faced the AI and then I realised that Titans are melee now, I lost my will to play and didn't want to spend 3000g on switching them up with the ranged upgrade. It frustrated me so much I never loaded that save again.
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Gidoza
Famous Hero
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posted March 28, 2019 06:19 PM |
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dredknight said:
thGryphn said:
Titan is essentially melee. Ranged (call lightning, which does zero damage to air-resistant creatures) is a rudimentary plan until the fight gets real. All his stats (along with all the mini artifacts which are the hallmark of the faction) are going down the drain as long as he is using call lightning. So, you really cannot call the Titan a shooter as it is.
First lets make it clear. As a T7 unit titan is a good damage dealer and you want him to as frequently as possible.
If you make Titan-A pure melee and Titan-B pure shooter (Shooting + Lighting), you will make:
- the average damage output of Titan-A much bigger than Titan-B because he simply would not be able to hit as often.
- The average survivability of Titan-A will be better than that of Titan-B too, because Titan-A can use Lighting in melee range to mitigate retaliation, which is a great deal.
The way the titans are currently working is great because it gives great tactical choice depending on the opponent your are facing as follows:
- Against defensive builds (paladin/engineer) one would like to pick the Titan-A (melee) so he can penetrate defense with Lighting and at the same time use the buffed stats to protect his own archers. Using Call Lighting gives him additional survivability in melee besides the 20 extra HP.
- Titan-B (shooter) is good against glass cannon builds that does not have tough units to block the titan for a long time. A few shooting attacks of the titans can turn the wave of the battle. The shooting titan also forces low defense builds to go forward and focus him. Serves like a taunt in some way.
Note: I believe Call Lighting is not reduced/countered by any resistances. It may be called "Lighting" but in fact it does pure unfiltered physical damage.
Besides the technical reasons mentioned I also agree with Magno's way of seeing the lore.
P.S. Mini artifacts are not that important for titans as they serve small percentage of their stats compared to the benefit of low tier units. Probably the best Minis for them are Initiative, Morale and Luck.
Only problem with your analysis is that Call Lightning often does more damage than the ranged attack (cut in half for distance), making the latter attack kind of pointless.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 28, 2019 09:46 PM |
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I'm pretty sure Call Lightning does not hit "Immune to Air" creatures at all. It seems I used the wrong word there; I had always meant immunity, not resistance, as in magic resistance or proofness.
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Gidoza
Famous Hero
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posted March 28, 2019 11:05 PM |
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thGryphn said:
I'm pretty sure Call Lightning does not hit "Immune to Air" creatures at all. It seems I used the wrong word there; I had always meant immunity, not resistance, as in magic resistance or proofness.
How many immune to air units are there...like two? It would be one thing if it was 25% of the corpus of units in Heroes 5, but this is kind of quirky bonus. (Sort of like how Troglodytes had immunity to Blind in Heroes 3 & 4...like...who cares?)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 29, 2019 05:38 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 05:42, 29 Mar 2019.
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It's more for flavor but will still make a real difference occasionally. Though one of my more memorable fights with neutrals was against a ridiculous amount of troglodytes. Even with mass slow, I could not kill them fast enough and there were like 800 in each stack. Any other unit would have been easy pickings with blind.
2% or not, if my opponent had dwarves I would not risk using those titans vs thunder thanes.
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anl93
Hired Hero
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posted March 29, 2019 08:14 AM |
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Edited by anl93 at 09:18, 29 Mar 2019.
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In HOMM5.5 There are many skills, abilities, artifacts, charms, trinkets etc... that reduces or negates magical damage. So fot that reason magical damages should stay high imo.
Lets talk about Necromancy i beat 4p map with normal dif. + heroic ai
Does anyone taking a Lords of the Undead + Unholy Crusade path?
Im just really wondering i believe Necromancy skill tree should be reworked
Lord of the undead: +1 knowledge is a minor 0.5 gold is not worth considering how peasants generate income so there a better skills to spend 300 peasant > 599 skeleton
Unholy Crusade: Cmon guys are we serious? Resurrection? The undead? Why i want resurrection the word is wrong resurrection is for the living i need just to raise beside the joke lets talk about the skill
We have resurrection tent, raise dead spell, lich with raise dead spell, dark energy and eternal servitude.
So basically the reason i choose Necropolis i want numbers over strong individuals, if i choose this perk i have to spend 2 skill points with the previous non useful skill. And all i get is a raise dead ability ONLY if you have mana and trinkets
Oh also we should talk about resurrection trinkets: as for necropolis you ALWAYS have better artifact candidates for those artf slots such as direct items or Necromancy set items which is far better candidates
I hope you understand what i mean you nerfed Necromancy and increased the raise dead spell cost i accept it for balancing reason
But as we Necromancers we hate to hold resurrection trinkets.
Skills should be changed to like %20 dark energy cost discount or x3 effectiveness of Eternal Servitude something like that
Please consider it
Necropolis early game is difficult and Unholy Crusade tree makes the late game harder also. It is only somewhat viable for magic class Necromancers (somewhat)
But there is always better skills to choose from
Please consider this thank you
Also what does Emissary of Darkness do?
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azalen
Responsible
Known Hero
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posted March 29, 2019 12:42 PM |
bonus applied by Galaad on 30 Mar 2019. |
Edited by azalen at 12:47, 29 Mar 2019.
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anl93 said:
Lets talk about Necromancy
Ok, so let's talk Necromancy. This will be from the standpoint of Impossible difficulty.
First of all, it isn't a good skill for non-undead heroes (I think Warlocks and Elementalists can get it). It has some reward in the perks: Cold Steel, Chilling Bones +6 Defense, Emissary +3 Morale - but it isn't really worth it because the base skill is worthless. Avoid.
For Necromancers, the skill is mediocre... mainly good for week 1-2 creeping with bigger Skele stack, but not much of a factor in the early game. As a Necromancer, I'm focused on getting spell casting skills, not Necromancy, so I usually skip Necromancy. Plus, as a Necromancer, I really don't need many creatures to creep...
Now, for Death Knights, its actually really good. If it comes up Week 1, I'm taking it (I would prioritize War Machines higher, but it is still a high pick). It is a really good Week 1 pickup, because it allows you to get a big stack of skeleton archers really fast. Later, you can get more Wraiths (everyone but Lucretia) or Vampires (if you're Lucretia). Also, think about it, you're a Death Knight, and thus a creature focused hero... more creatures is good.
If you can't get War Machines->Tent, then Necromancy/Eternal Servitude can serve as a decent plan B as a replenishment strategy.
Analysis of the Perks:
Cold Steel: 10% damage from 1 skill slot is no joke. This is a good one.
Chilling Bones: I wouldn't take this... I'm not interested in a 5% fire (cold) shield. That's a barely noticeable effect. If it actually lowered the initiative of the attacker as well, it would be worth considering.
Eternal Servitude: Great if you're Undead. Poor Man's War Machine->Tent. The skeleton weekly recruiting buff is also not insignificant.
Lord of the Dead: Intentionally bad skill because it is on the 3 skill payoff tree.
Unholy Crusade: Not a good payoff for a tier 3 skill. The value of the perk is in the +1 movement, not the Ressurection buff. If I'm going for creature speed, I'm going for Aura of Swiftness and Tactics, both of which Death Knights have easy access to.
Banshee Howl: I like this one as an alternative to spending skill points on Dark/Enlightement. This can become pretty strong for a might vs might battles, as it makes your first hero turn nearly as powerful as a dark caster. Remember, you have Death Stare from dragons. If you can obtain a -2 Morale artifact (the ring or the cloak), you can get a full blown -5 morale effect (-7 if you get both the cloak and the ring). This can completely nullify your opponent's morale and initiative advantages over you. Big deal for just 1 skill point on a tier 1 skill.
Emissary of Darkness: Not worth taking unless you're living for the massive +3 morale bonus.
So, the ideal use of Necromancy would be: Death Knight, Week 1, Cold Steel, Eternal Servitude, and maybe Banshee howl if you're skipping Dark.
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anl93
Hired Hero
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posted March 29, 2019 01:24 PM |
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Edited by anl93 at 13:25, 29 Mar 2019.
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you point of view is similiar to mine
of course i'm not saying necromancy branch is bad of course it has good perks to take but specifically lords of the undead and unholy crusade is not worth much since you spend two levelup ponts.
Fot death knight i always (and not consider) take Eternal + Chiling + cold steel
Even the banshee howl is nerfed in the 5.5 so i skip it.
With 1-2 Death Embrace items and with Spectral dragon you get the same effects so i don't take it but it can be worthwhile
What i'm trying to say is middle branch is weak imo and the right branch is somewhat weak
The resurrection thingy should be completely removed and Necromancy skill tree should be reworked.
If you are playing on impossible, you are muchexperienced than me also i usually play Death Knight in fact not the necromancer. Death Knights boost base stats more and Necropolis relies on numbers but of course this is just a taste of play.
Edit: I agree that war machines pay off better
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azalen
Responsible
Known Hero
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posted March 29, 2019 03:28 PM |
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Edited by azalen at 15:37, 29 Mar 2019.
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anl93 said:
If you are playing on impossible, you are muchexperienced than me also i usually play Death Knight in fact not the necromancer. Death Knights boost base stats more and Necropolis relies on numbers but of course this is just a taste of play.
Both Necromancers and Death Knights are very well put together for impossible. In fact, next to Dungeon Stalker only-creeping, Necromancers probably have the easiest creeping of any faction thanks to ghost blockers and summoning/raise dead.
With Death Knights the top gets are: war machines->tent (like any might hero), chain attack->stunning strike (most death knights begin with combat, put on skele archers and you control the initiative turns of up to 2 opposing stacks), attack->battle frenzy (huge buff to skele damage). After that, I’d be looking for logistics and necromancy week 1.
One of my favorite things about death knights is they can get both aura of swiftness AND Diplomacy. Winning a Diplomacy roll on any Level 4 stack and converting them to a Vampire stack (with that Necro building, not Herald of Death) with Lucretia is usually a game winning event. Its weird, but crown of leadership is actually one of the top finds for a death knight.
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