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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 381 pages long: 1 50 100 150 200 250 300 350 ... 372 373 374 375 376 ... 381 · «PREV / NEXT»
strigvir
strigvir


Adventuring Hero
posted May 21, 2019 01:29 PM

But the current situation with imbue ballista is a massive meme, which requires too much setup (right skills, right items, right spells) to be comparable to other Ranger builds. Not to mention it's not possible to make a triple imbue arrow without respecs, since Destruction is locked behind behind imbue ballista. And the way imbue ballista provides its skill means it has to be grabbed asap, when the Ranger doesn't even have proper spellpower, knowledge and spells to use it, on top of getting -1 morale.
Empathy Stunning Strike Master of Ice Triple Deep Freeze imbue arrow is fun and all, but it only gets there after pretty much wiping out at least one enemy. And any faction with Destruction priority in their guild can easily whoop a gimped version of Ranger.

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Marvin
Marvin

Tavern Dweller
posted May 21, 2019 01:32 PM

Hi,

I agree that allowing other classes to use the imbue ballista would be really too much.

But I also feel that if we consider the sylvan heroes classes, Ranger are great (nature wrath and battle frenzy on dryads and hunters are really powerful), Druid can be too (with the druid channelling), but I don't see any interest in Warden class.

First their class skill is Defence which is according to me quite useless. then they don't have any special feature or combos that can make them challenging other classes. Even their specialisations suck.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it could be wise to revise them.
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Krisys
Krisys

Tavern Dweller
posted May 21, 2019 01:58 PM

I just find that, as it is, the game lacks the possibility to exploit the Imbue Ballista skill I mean, the issue was already there in vanilla, kinda, but at least there was the possibility to batch Imbue Ballista and Triple Ballista...

I understand that it miiight be hard to balance with more synergic skills being available, or with a higher Spellpower class, but as it is it demands a crazy amound of build-up for a pretty little reward. Even with more skills to make it work with, I feel like Imbue Ballista would remain a very lategame build because of all the required build-up

Anyway, I love the current version of 5.5, thank you for your hard work on it just felt that this particular skill didn't get enough love.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 21, 2019 06:21 PM

If imbue+triple+spellpower can be gained fast it would become an obligatory build on small maps and just be massively OP. The current system works well and is only meant for large maps where map objects provide extra spellpower, on small maps you just have to do something else.

It is also worth mentioning imbue ballista is hardcoded to the ranger class.
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azalen
azalen


Promising
Adventuring Hero
posted May 23, 2019 02:02 AM
Edited by azalen at 03:09, 23 May 2019.

Krisys said:
I just find that, as it is, the game lacks the possibility to exploit the Imbue Ballista skill I mean, the issue was already there in vanilla, kinda, but at least there was the possibility to batch Imbue Ballista and Triple Ballista...

I understand that it miiight be hard to balance with more synergic skills being available, or with a higher Spellpower class, but as it is it demands a crazy amound of build-up for a pretty little reward. Even with more skills to make it work with, I feel like Imbue Ballista would remain a very lategame build because of all the required build-up

Anyway, I love the current version of 5.5, thank you for your hard work on it just felt that this particular skill didn't get enough love.


Imbue ballista is highly exploitable, particularly by Ossir, because he can present multiple high offense, high initiative threats on the end-game battle - pumped Arcanes and Triple Imbued Ballista.  An opponent can only deal with one of these threats at a time on their swift mind turn, allowing Ossir to lay on the offense.  In addition, Ossir himself can also cast destruction spells, making his turns more effective on average than if he was a pure might hero.  

Even though destruction can seem like a dead skill for most of the game, Ossir doesn't really need extra skills to creep given his pumped Arcane Archers and triple ballista.  Therefore, he doesn't really suffer from a dead skill slot like other heroes.  Now, he may not be as efficient as a creeping all-star hero like an Ingvar, but he certainly can break week 3 fairly easily.  

Also, "late-game" is a relative term.  If you are good at creeping, "late-game" can mean as early as early week 3.  You only need to get past the gatekeepers to the major artifact area to enable imbue ballista.    

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azalen
azalen


Promising
Adventuring Hero
posted May 23, 2019 03:00 AM bonus applied by Galaad on 25 May 2019.
Edited by azalen at 03:10, 23 May 2019.

Majulio said:

I haven't managed to find a way to use hybrid heroes without feeling I could be doing better with either of the specialized classes for each faction. What's their niche? Fight Might as if you were magic and vice versa isn't working for me, so I'm doing it wrong or it has to be something else.



I am forced to agree that some of they hybrid classes are kinda weak.  However, class is only one factor in how good a hero is.  Hero special and starting skills are also a big deal.

Here is how I see the Hybrid classes:

Paladin: Mixed Light Magic/ Might Class with access to Expert Shatter Destruction/Arcane Shield.  Idea is to creep with Light Magic tanking spells like Regeneration, and beat your opponent (preferably magic hero), with Might stats, Shatter Destruction, and +16 (Arcane Shield and Twilight) Celestial Shield.

Gatekeeper:  I'm not currently a fan as Dark Magic is pretty terrible at the moment.  They are best played as Destruction Casters, as they have access to sorcery, but they do a bad job of it thanks to problems with Demon units and no Occultism.  I used to be a fan of Jezebth, as pumped Succubi are highly exploitable, but Dark Magic changes have made her pretty bad.  Quite frankly, you are better off playing with a "REAL" magic hero like Zydar (maybe the best magic hero in the game), if you want to play Inferno.

Reaver: The idea for Reavers is to play something close to a Might Necropolis hero, but also have access to Raise Dead and other Summoning shenanigans.  You don't need high spell power for some of the Summoning Spells (Phantom Forces in particular), so they work ok.  I personally prefer Death Knights over Reavers because they have better Might Stats and have access to Diplomacy, which is particularly effective for Undead because of Shrine of the Netherworld and Aura of Swiftness being tier 2.

Warden: The idea here is to make a Combat->Retaliation Strike build with Ancient Treants (notice they have access to combat).  Grab light-Regeneration and Stand your Ground, and go tanking away.  Also, make use of Sprite Symbiosis.  In theory, this build is effective week 2, but I'm not sure what you're going to be doing week 1 - reliant on Arcanes I guess like everyone else.

Assassins:  They have all the tools to become good Destruction casters with Sorcery and Occultism.  The main good part is that they all start with Logistics, which can be important on some maps.  You have to play them like weaker Destruction casters for the most part - the issue is week 1 when you don't get the starting skills to handle impossible mine guards.  You can play them with stalker invisibility creeping to make up for some of their deficiencies.    

Wizards: Wizards aren't really a hybrid class. They are a true magic class with a focus on light and summoning, and have a good late game with initiative Artificer artifacts.  Wizards are great in general.  

Runemage: Maybe the truest "hybrid" in a sense as you can go many ways with them.  I think they are at their best played as Sorcery Speed Light Magic unit enhancers with decent might stats and Runes.  Imagine this: Runed-up Magma Dragons with Celestial Shield, Deflect Missile, Endurance, and Haste - How do you kill them???

Shaman: Shamans aren't a true hybrid class.  They are a light/summoning magic class with terrible units - but at least they get free spells.

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azalen
azalen


Promising
Adventuring Hero
posted May 23, 2019 03:23 AM

strigvir said:
If you think Findan with Treants is OP, try out Andreas with Griffins. Requires Vampirism for smoothness though.
Imperial Griffins have very high initiative, so you will have better control over when to dive or go on defense, especially when morale procs.
Battle Griffins will go absolute retard with damage mult though, especially if it counts twice with Preparation.
Both versions will be hard to control by enemy, thanks to specialization.
Probably can skip Light magic altogether, since Teleport is bundled with Dark magic now.


I think you mean Irina instead of Andreas in 5.5.

I have tried Battle Griffins with a stand-your-ground/retaliation builds.  They aren't really tough enough for legit Impossible creeping unless you have Regeneration.
Lucreatia vampires they are not.  As for giving them Vampirism, pretty much anything is a creeping power house with Vampirism, so that's not really an
argument for or against them.  

Imperial Griffins are definitely the better unit as high initiative and repeated battle diving works like a poor man's invisibility.  They are definitely
capable of performing some creeping exploits.  However, they play a bit like Furies though as where you go on the ATB bar is critical to avoiding losses,
which can be frustrating.

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Auron1st
Auron1st


Hired Hero
posted May 23, 2019 12:02 PM

Why not Shatter Dark Magic?

I usually take shatter dark to get resistance (permanent +4 defense) and that last skill in the middle tree that reduces all magic attacks by 20% (with defense tree line with 2 skills that reduce magic attack i try make my haven troop magic proof as much as possible)

azalen said:
strigvir said:
If you think Findan with Treants is OP, try out Andreas with Griffins. Requires Vampirism for smoothness though.
Imperial Griffins have very high initiative, so you will have better control over when to dive or go on defense, especially when morale procs.
Battle Griffins will go absolute retard with damage mult though, especially if it counts twice with Preparation.
Both versions will be hard to control by enemy, thanks to specialization.
Probably can skip Light magic altogether, since Teleport is bundled with Dark magic now.


I think you mean Irina instead of Andreas in 5.5.

I have tried Battle Griffins with a stand-your-ground/retaliation builds.  They aren't really tough enough for legit Impossible creeping unless you have Regeneration.
Lucreatia vampires they are not.  As for giving them Vampirism, pretty much anything is a creeping power house with Vampirism, so that's not really an
argument for or against them.  

Imperial Griffins are definitely the better unit as high initiative and repeated battle diving works like a poor man's invisibility.  They are definitely
capable of performing some creeping exploits.  However, they play a bit like Furies though as where you go on the ATB bar is critical to avoiding losses,
which can be frustrating.

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azalen
azalen


Promising
Adventuring Hero
posted May 23, 2019 12:50 PM
Edited by azalen at 12:51, 23 May 2019.

Auron1st said:
I usually take shatter dark to get resistance (permanent +4 defense) and that last skill in the middle tree that reduces all magic attacks by 20% (with defense tree line with 2 skills that reduce magic attack i try make my haven troop magic proof as much as possible)




Several Reasons:

1) Dark isn't a very good creeping school right now from the perspective of Impossible difficulty.  You have to get up to level 3 mage guild to get to Sorrow, and it doesn't actually get good until level 4 Blindness.  If you are going to go creeping as dark, you had better build-up your mage guild early and your main is going to have to waste movement points going back to town.

Bottom-Line: If you are up against a Dark magic hero, you will beat him creeping-wise and won't really need a shatter-skill to beat him because you will have artifact/stat advantage.

2) Investing points in shatter skills early is a bad plan on Impossible difficulty.  You are better off getting skills that help you creep.  This is particularly true for Haven, which struggles to creep week 1-2.  Now, week 3, if you have a good idea of what you're going to face - then you think about it.  

3) The perks in Shatter Dark are not much to right home about... 20% will not save you against a good destruction caster (remember, we are talking about empowered, casters luck, 50% artifact, swift minded, sorcery casters) and +4 defense is a big yawn... not worth investing 6 skill points.

4) Haven troops have Cleansing (Inquisitor) and Lay on Hand (Paladin), and you will likely will have Light Magic to counter.  You have the tools to deal with a dark caster unlike other factions.  

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 23, 2019 03:49 PM

1) Dark isn't a very good creeping school right now from the perspective of Impossible difficulty.  

Decay isn't any less useful for creeping than L2 destruction spells, it is less useful against shooters, but more useful against melee and generally more mana efficient.

2) Investing points in shatter skills early is a bad plan

true on any difficulty

3) The perks in Shatter Dark are not much to right home about... 20% will not save you against a good destruction caster

not true, on the contrary negative multipliers applied last are the most powerful mathematically and therefore more valuable the stronger your enemy is. x1.5 x1.5 x0.8 negates 45% of the damage that was gained
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azalen
azalen


Promising
Adventuring Hero
posted May 23, 2019 05:31 PM

magnomagus said:
1) Dark isn't a very good creeping school right now from the perspective of Impossible difficulty.  

Decay isn't any less useful for creeping than L2 destruction spells, it is less useful against shooters, but more useful against melee and generally more mana efficient.



I think you kinda made my point here.  Immediacy matters when you are talking about avoiding losses to problem stacks like Arcane archers/druids/mages etc... camping out your mine.  Can it deal with slow walkers?  Sure, but the ability to deal with problem stacks with little to no losses is what truly separates you from the opponent.  

As for 20% point, i can yield that, but ask yourself if that is worth 6 skill points in shatter dark?  Compare that to the other payoffs like Storm Wind and Arcane Armor.  At 30%, I might take notice.


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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 23, 2019 06:16 PM

you exaggerate most of your statements, you laugh at +4 defense for the entire army, but you highly value it when you get it from a specialization for only a single creature. +4 on 7 stacks is 28 points, that's more than 2x +10 on a single stack. so you invest 6 points for a hell lot more, replacing your peasant stack with an elemental stack + crippling your enemies favourite spell school.

the odds for druids standing in front of the most important mine are very low in most cases you can just leave that one annoying stack alone. mana cost for empowered spells are high so destructive mages could end up just as well wasting time walking back for different reasons.
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Auron1st
Auron1st


Hired Hero
posted May 24, 2019 11:04 AM
Edited by Auron1st at 11:05, 24 May 2019.

Thank you both for you insights

magnomagus said:
1) Dark isn't a very good creeping school right now from the perspective of Impossible difficulty.  

Decay isn't any less useful for creeping than L2 destruction spells, it is less useful against shooters, but more useful against melee and generally more mana efficient.

2) Investing points in shatter skills early is a bad plan

true on any difficulty

3) The perks in Shatter Dark are not much to right home about... 20% will not save you against a good destruction caster

not true, on the contrary negative multipliers applied last are the most powerful mathematically and therefore more valuable the stronger your enemy is. x1.5 x1.5 x0.8 negates 45% of the damage that was gained

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted May 24, 2019 02:44 PM bonus applied by Galaad on 25 May 2019.
Edited by dredknight at 12:35, 25 May 2019.

azalen said:

1) Dark isn't a very good creeping school right now from the perspective of Impossible difficulty.  


I believe it is mentioned many times before, Impossible difficulty is actually what is says - impossible, so you have to take the game mechanics to the extreme to be able to get your game going. This means a lot of strategies will fall of as the player strive for maximum PvE efficiency if he wants to get somewhere. This difficulty is more like a chess puzzle for me then an actual game.

It is true that dark set of abilities can be considered weaker in the early stage of the game but when we speak about balance impossible difficulty is disregarded.

If you want true balance on all difficulty then we need to own the H5 code. Then even destruction can be balanced as formula for destructive spells will be something like A + B% where A is flat damage and B% is damage based on a percentage of the health of the whole stack. There can be spells that also do damage based on the number of units in the stack (like the Stronghold shout etc.) but those are mechanics which are impossible to implement right now.


Regarding balanced heroes (not on impossible diff again) - they are a few that have weaker early game but some of that is bias because they include:
- some of the least useful specializations in the game - Mindreaver
- Specializations that do does not provide direct hero power gain or are dependent on map specifications - Rusher, Explorer, Tracker, Souldrinker, Poison Master, castle creature population increase (but have to be bought), most of neutral summon specs are here, resource specializations.

Except the Mindreaver all other can be used in some kind of Meta build if you know and understand how the map is constructed, what will be the pace of the game based on the map size. IMO those are the hardest heroes to play due to the accumulated knowledge a player needs to own. I've done unspeakable things with those classes, some examples:
- Dungeon Assassin class - due to high logistics speed combined with Dark you can outpace the opponent in PvE grinding after you get high lvl Dark spells. Vampirism and Puppet master give you the ability to get Adventure map special sites that most people are afraid to attack. So you become rich very fast and can invest in more infrastructure and dwellings, so at the army you army is bigger.

- Gatekeeper class - may be one of the most generic, easy to mold classes which are a bit slow on early game creeping. This class build is very dependable on equipped artifacts and the hero specialization:
  a) They can be fast as Assassins with even better creeping capabilities (Grok + dark + Gating)
  b) Mighty - (Nymus specs + the whole gating tree)
  c) Rangy - Jezbeth (gating + archery + War Machines)
  d) Maggy -Throw a magic build or two with the right artifacts
 
Besides those above there are a couple of meta builds I am thinking of but have not had the chance to try. Easily Gatekeeper is my favourite class.

Bonus elaboration on Academy:
Academy is heavy Magic oriented faction so their classes compared to the game baseline are:
- Balanced
- Magic
- Heavy Magic

Where the 2 magic classes are just different variations - one tilted a bit towards knowledge and have artificier, where depending on the build it can get a bit more towards might (a lot of artifacts) or go pure magic (focus on Spellpower and Spellcasting). The other is heavily tilted towards spellpower and has the ability to shine with any of the 4 schools (if you find the spells).

So to sum it up -  Do not think that straight forward about classes. Some stuff are not that bad, others cannot be changed due to being hardcodded. We need approval from Ubisoft to use the code for non commercial purpose. I do tried to contact them twice but I do not have any good points of contact and support is not the place to go ask for that .


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Marvin
Marvin

Tavern Dweller
posted May 24, 2019 10:03 PM

Hi guys,

Here is a small contribution about my experience so far. I've been through 2 random maps with AI only.

Here is what I notices :

Bugs :

- Some dwelling conversions don't work properly. Most are effective, some are not. I couldn't find any clue why.

- After a huge battle with big armies, I reduced the army of the opponent to 4 skeleton archers, and I started casting resurrection spells to all my stacks. After few turn, my army was nearly back on its feet, but I couldn't cast the resurrection spell any more, even though my hero had mana. Bug or is there a limit to the number of time a spell can be cast in a single fight?


Graphic :

- In the maps I played (I don't know if it is there in all) there was this light purple transparent crystals all over

the underground map. I found that very annoying, it actually made the underground unpleasant, I was not able to see properly where are the creature, where are the resources etc... I would be ok, with some zone with these, but the whole maps was full of that.


Gameplay :

- I find strange that the extended battlefields are to be found in the crypt, caves, mines, towers, I mean interiors. I actually think the battlefields should be narrow in those map sites, and broad outside. When I say narrow, I mean it would be even interesting to think about very narrow, late 6 tiles or less on some sites.

- As mentioned before, I find the balanced classes of hero less powerful than others. In most of the case, they can be secondary heroes at best, but rarely THE hero I would use for the final battle.


I also had a question ; I'm sure you already answered it dozens of times before, but how to get the dragonblood crystals? The only two ways I came across are :
- some heroes when hired come with 10 of them.
- the shatter magic skills give some too.
Are there other ways to get them? How to know how many of them we've got?


Thanks

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 25, 2019 07:33 PM

dwelling conversion works properly, but the message 'conversion limit reached' currently doesn't (fixable)

summoning perks and some artifacts also give crystals, the amount of summons can be read from town management info screen.

I have been successful with all hybrid classes on heroic difficulty (I rarely play impossible), but I never play them as 'weak destructive casters', trying to be something you are not is always a bad idea.
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Marvin
Marvin

Tavern Dweller
posted May 26, 2019 09:33 PM

magnomagus said:
dwelling conversion works properly, but the message 'conversion limit reached' currently doesn't (fixable)



Ok, I didn't know that. Can I know what is the limit?

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Marvin
Marvin

Tavern Dweller
posted May 26, 2019 10:28 PM

magnomagus said:
dwelling conversion works properly, but the message 'conversion limit reached' currently doesn't (fixable)



Ok, I didn't know that. Can I know what is the limit?

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 26, 2019 11:38 PM

2 per tier
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strigvir
strigvir


Adventuring Hero
posted May 27, 2019 08:46 PM

azalen said:

I think you mean Irina instead of Andreas in 5.5.


No I meant Andreas, since Irina doesn't have access to dark magic, so no expert teleport, which is crucial for this playstyle.
azalen said:

I have tried Battle Griffins with a stand-your-ground/retaliation builds.  They aren't really tough enough for legit Impossible creeping unless you have Regeneration.

Impossible or not, no creature is tough enough for creeping without regen/vampirism, even trees.
azalen said:

Lucreatia vampires they are not.

Lucretia vampires also don't have unlimited retaliation and are not related to the discussion. Ofc a broken OP thing is better anything niche, but we are comparing Stand Your Ground Griffins vs. Stand Your Ground Treants.
azalen said:

As for giving them Vampirism, pretty much anything is a creeping power house with Vampirism, so that's not really an argument for or against them.

It is an argument in this case, considering Haven can get vampirism in their own castles, something Sylvan can't (on top of not being able to get dark magic on Ranger). And the vampirism goes very well for effectively a double attack.
azalen said:
However, they play a bit like Furies though as where you go on the ATB bar is critical to avoiding losses, which can be frustrating.

Isn't it the same with treants, except they have even worse speed/initiative stats (=less Empathy procs), which makes them more vulnerable to ranged stacks and magic?

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