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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 27, 2016 06:00 PM |
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dredknight said:
Alright may be the change was so slight we couldnt see it.
Anyway more issues to cover.
It seems (at list on plain look) that defense works different than it is written.
here are the examples:
Sylvan dragon against shadow dragon when dungeon has Expert defense.
Sylvan dragon against shadow dragon when dungeon has no defense skill at all.
This is straight 50% reduction in damage (RC7a footage).
There is a huge difference in battle results if defense is picked or not. Why is that happening?
P.S.
Heroes are druid lvl 39 and dungeon lvl 38.
Here are the replays
Why don't you go through formula, so we can all see the problem, I believe you can find it here
http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=529
In one of your replays, emerald dragons have attack of 61, and black dragon have defense of 62 so formula looks like this
B. In case attackers attack is lower than defenders defense value
Damage = trunc(creature damage value * stack size * (1 - (defense-attack) / (20+defense-attack)) * (1 + attack boosters) * (1 - defense boosters))
So, minimum damage, from the formula is:
Minimum damage = 34 * 345 * (1- (62-61) / (20 + 62-61)) * (1 + let’s say attack booster is 0) * (1 – 0.25)
Minimum damage = 11 730 * (1 – 1/21) * 1 * 0.75
Minimum damage = 11 730 * (1 – 0.04762) * 1 * 0.75
Minimum damage = 11 730 * 0.714285
Minimum damage = 8378
Maximum Damage = 58 * 345 * 0.714285
Maximum Damage = 20 010 * 0.714285
Maximum Damage = 14 292
In the case of the mentioned game emerald dragons made 16570 damage, so Ylthin must have had some attack or Castore did not have defense.
It’s happening because the formula is being applied, so it would help that you write down relevant formulas with relevant info, so we can understand either how to make the game better, or that peculiar effect you achieved.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted June 27, 2016 07:31 PM |
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On both pics Ylthin has Expert attack + Battle frenzy + Retribution.
Army has 5 morale (2 by default +3 from boots and cape of lion).
You got the formula wrong. In Homm5.5 you get 3.33% bonus per attack/defense point. So it goes like this.
(damage+frenzy)*number*[1-(defense-attack)*0.0333]*[1+expert offense+retribution(5)] = damage
(33+1)*367 *(1-1*0.0333)*(1+0.2+0.125) = 15982.789445
(57+1)*367 *(1-1*0.0333)*(1+0.2+0.125) = 27264.758465
(damage+frenzy)*number*[1-(defense-attack)*0.0333]*[1+expert offense+retribution(5)]*[1-expert_defense] = damage
(33+1)*367 *(1*0.0333)*(1+0.2+0.125)-(1-0.25) = 11987.09208375
(57+1)*367 *(1*0.0333)*(1+0.2+0.125)-(1-0.25) = 20448.56884875
Tomorrow I will check the real numbers and skills and edit this.
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 27, 2016 08:54 PM |
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dredknight said:
On both pics Ylthin has Expert attack + Battle frenzy + Retribution.
Army has 3 morale (2 by default +1 from boots).
You got the formula wrong. In Homm5.5 you get 3.33% bonus per attack/defense point. So it goes like this.
(damage+frenzy)*number*[1-(defense-attack)*0.0333]*[1+expert offense+retribution(3)] = damage
(33+1)*367 *(1-1*0.0333)*(1+0.15+0.075) = 14776.541185
(57+1)*367 *(1-1*0.0333)*(1+0.15+0.075) = 25207.040845
(damage+frenzy)*number*[1-(defense-attack)*0.0333]*[1+expert offense+retribution(3)]*[1-expert_defense] = damage
(33+1)*367 *(1*0.0333)*(1+0.15+0.075)-(1-0.25) = 11082.40588875
(57+1)*367 *(1*0.0333)*(1+0.15+0.075)-(1-0.25) = 18905.28063375
Tomorrow I will check the real numbers and skills and edit this.
So this is it.
Damage = (damage+frenzy)*number*[1-(defense-attack)*0.0333]*[1+expert offense+retribution(3)]
“you get 3.33% bonus per attack/defense point”
I guess if you have expert defence, formula is
Damage = (damage+frenzy)*number*[1-(defense-attack)*0.0333 *3(expert defense bonus factor) ]*[1+expert offense+retribution(3)]
So, where do you add “3.33% bonus per attack”?
Also, doesn't expert attack adds 0.20 instead of 0.15?
It would be nice to see complete equation, one with all factors, one before operations starts.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted June 27, 2016 08:59 PM |
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HVKnight
Hired Hero
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posted June 28, 2016 10:24 AM |
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So, a friend and I have been playing LAN games on ARMG generated Ultima template maps. We've played alot of different factions against each other and it seems that (with few exceptions) the game always comes down to who has the highest initiative, with one side getting several actions to the other's single action. As an extreme example, Academy in late game with mini artifacts is basically unstoppable. With a Knowledge of 27, I had artis with 34% initiative boost. Add in a few hero based initiative artifacts and you've got huge initiative advantage. Academy aside, the way the initiative mechanic works, in general, makes things feel like the winner of our big end-battles are fore-gone conclusions. This is with RC7a. Haven't upgraded to RC8 yet, but I don't think there were major changes to the initiative mechanic. Anyone else feel like this stat is too weighty? I realize that on small maps, this isn't as evident, but for long, late-game battles, I'd love for battles to be more closely contested. Thoughts?
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted June 28, 2016 11:35 AM |
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Hello HVKnight  . Long time no see!
Actually in RC8 academy artifacts are nerfed.
Quote:
- Fixed issue with simultaneous turns stop when player buys ship.
- Balanced initiative mini-artifacts for academy, 0.75 per K.
- Balanced magic protection mini-artifact, max 55% magic proof.
- Balanced luck & morale artifacts, knowledge/12
All changes can be found here.
I have had plenty of fights and I dont think I can support your idea fully. Basically I will suggest you to try the following.
After you have played the final battle, swap roles and fight again.
You in control of your opponent army and him in control of yours.
This is something we do because sometimes the blind spots of your own bias let you make subjective conclusions.
Cheers!
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted June 28, 2016 02:10 PM |
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@HVKnight: your post doesn't define a problem, you speak of 'with one side getting several actions to the other's single action', which means a huge difference in initiative. You could say that for any stat, if one side has much more HP it wins, if one side has much more Attack it wins. This only makes clear one side wasn't developing very well.
There are weak cretaures with lots of initiative (imps), there are strong creatures (treants) with very little initiative. clearly for those initiative is not what makes them win or lose.
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zmudziak22
Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
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posted June 28, 2016 06:31 PM |
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In HOMM, winner is one who do most damage on field, like disabling enemy powerstack etc.
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azalen
Responsible
Known Hero
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posted June 28, 2016 07:55 PM |
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I agree with HVKnight. Academy is a problem with init artis at end game, particularly with Havez. The gremlin initiative nerf was not quite enough, but the problem is the artis, not the creature. Havez is even more crazy now that he gets easy access to ressurection through master of life.
It is also a problem for Necro might, since they can't compete with Sylvan, Haven, and Academy Lucky initiative attacks with their fragile units, and they can't get off their dark spells before their best stacks are destroyed.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted June 28, 2016 09:42 PM |
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It is kind of silly to complain about something that was adressed just in the latest patch and your comment about resurrection shows it wasn't based on actual game experience since an Havez build would rarely include both light & summoning magic and even then he has weak spellpower development and with the library he will get some great extra spells anyway.
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azalen
Responsible
Known Hero
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posted June 28, 2016 10:46 PM |
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I wasn't complaining. Its just an opinion. As the creator, you can disregard it as nutty as you choose 
For Havez, I like picking up basic summoning to get phantom forces for his gremlins stack. Arcane Armor and Blade Barrier are nice situational extras. I get light magic for mass haste and resurrection. Guaranteeing I get resurrection via Master of Life is nice.
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HVKnight
Hired Hero
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posted June 29, 2016 07:38 AM |
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@Magnomagus: I realize my post was not at all scientific and I didn't define a problem per se. It was more of a question. Certainly not a complaint, as I enjoy the MOD immensely and am a big fan of the work you guys are doing on it. Again, this may seem unscientific, but in my personal experience, initiative boosts are the most important of all boosts to get. Swift Mind/Expert Sorcery and Empathy are must have perks, I find, and if I find an initiative artifact, I'm using it over pretty much any others, no matter what class I'm playing. The nerf to artificer in RC8 is great and will certainly make the end-game more balanced. Well done. The recent changes to Runes and Gating are also awesome. Overall, the balance is really shaping up.
As for the initiative question, maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way. I'm probably only an intermediate player compared to many of you, after all. So, could someone show me I'm wrong and advise me on how I should prepare for a late game fight with an Academy hero if I'm playing Necropolis? Assuming both sides developed at optimal rates. It is a problem I can't seem to solve. Can't seem to get enough casts in to do any significant harm before I'm overwhelmed.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted June 29, 2016 03:59 PM |
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Puppet master note - Puppet mater is better utilized when cast on high initiative creatures.
Example - if puppet lasts for 2.00 turns and it is cast on a unit with 14 initiative it will act much more times than if cast on a unit with 10.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted June 29, 2016 04:10 PM |
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@Azalan: Ok, actually I'm considering exchanging resurrection for regeneration, but not because of havez.
@HVKnight: Actually that's already a lot more to the point by focusing on necropolis. however observe the following if one side has 10% from artifacts + mass haste (let's say 25%) and necropolis has only mass slow (-25%) then the result is still only a bonus of +0.3 initiative.
10 *1.1 *1.25 *0.75 = 10.31
EDIT: on second thought i think slow cancels haste entirely so it's merely a matter of order of casting, in any case mass slow is a must for necropolis.
@dredknight: not something i can change.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted June 29, 2016 04:16 PM |
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Here is a battle between Stronghold Chieftain and Heretic on Rc7a. Nothing new under the hood when it comes to Puppet and Frenzy.
Stronghold hero has the Might over Magic perk but shatter dark just didnt appear.
Also some nice usage of Spirit link can be seen.
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Forsberg
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 29, 2016 04:54 PM |
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1. Is it possible to automatically divide units stacks for resurrection?
In the window of resurrection after battle (for necro) you have example 24 ghosts but it is enough points for 17 ghosts. Would be it possible to do it automatically? Now I have to divide them myself and find how much I can resurrect. It is annoying
2. Do not end battle immediately but allow player to use mana (or tent) to resurrect units. Not once I finished battle without possibility to resurrect skeletons by tent because the last enemy unit was killed.
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dundred
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 29, 2016 07:04 PM |
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Hey,
First off:
I've been playing HOMMV for years and love this mod.
Keep up the good work! :-)
I'm combining your mod with certain custom models and would like to ask,
how I can make Heroes such as Alaric use a melee attack animation instead
of the ranged one.
You know, like the Necro Ornella in the original game, who was a Necromancer
and still used the "strike" animation when attacking.
I tried figuring it out, but had no luck so far.
I'm pretty sure that it's the new classes causing this issue,
can it be reverted?
Would be really glad if someone here could help me out.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted June 29, 2016 08:44 PM |
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dundred
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 29, 2016 10:45 PM |
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Okay, sad thing, but guess you can't do anything about it.
I'll continue my own research and let you know, if I find a way.
Also, btw, I think your Arantir still moves very slowly, right?
Here'd be a fixed version - if you're interested:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/attachments/arantirmovefix-rar.241485/
I only increased the movement speed, changed nothing else.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted June 30, 2016 10:01 AM |
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This Popular Thread is pages long: 
. I fixed the formulas in the previous post!
