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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 435 pages long: 1 50 100 150 200 250 ... 274 275 276 277 278 ... 300 350 400 435 · «PREV / NEXT»
Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 15, 2017 07:35 PM

"You can tell where I'm wrong:

The avg ini of all haven upgrades is 10.14
but by default they have 2 morale so if you place 7 creatures on the battlefield.
1.4 creatures will get a boost of 0.4 ATB every round which is an ini boost of 1/0.6 = 1.667.
The other 5.6 creatures get nothing so 1.4x1.667 + 5.6x1 / 7 = 1.1334
1.1334 x 10.14 = an actual avg ini is 11.49

repeat the calculation for 1 morale and the actual ini is 10.81 which is a reduction of 6%

So the staff makes a 14% difference between the 2 players. But since the morale effect only works after the ATB bars are filled during the first turn the actual effect is probably worth ~16%.

If the morale penalty was -2 the difference would be 8%, so probably 10%, so similar to the ring of celerity."

Positive morale is not initiative!
Because initiative influences to the first move of units, but positive morale doesn't. It's the same difference as between Quickness of Mind and Sorcery.
Initiative is units' analog of "Sorcery + Quickness of Mind", but positive morale is only analog of "Sorcery".

Boost of +2 Morale (except the first move) is 10/9.2 (10 moves, 2 morale = +0.4*2 = +0.8 round economy => 10 moves for 10-0.8 = 9.2 rounds).
It means that -2 Morale is near to -8% initative but except the first move (it's very important!).

Moreover, necromancers do not suffer at all from this ultimative artifact.
Also -20% initiative has 2 "terms":
1) +25% army initiative boost (relatively to other army)
2) +25% both heroes boost (relatively to both armies)
Point 2 is important against neutral armies which haven't any heroes; and important if your hero is Magic but enemy hero is Might. And -2 morale doesn't compensate this ultimative boost, because it influence to your army, not to your main figure - hero.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 15, 2017 08:11 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 20:13, 15 Sep 2017.

@Nargott: you quoted my old calculation that was wrong, I later recalculated (but didn't write it out on the forum) the average initiative boost over 5 turns:

1 morale ~= +5.3%
2 morale ~= +11%
5 morale ~= +26.6%

If you have different numbers I'm interested to see the math.

I am aware it doesn't affect necropolis, but necropolis has the slowest average initiative of all factions and no means to boost it with morale. So less problematic.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 15, 2017 08:33 PM
Edited by Nargott at 20:57, 15 Sep 2017.

"Nargott I didn't mean to offend. By on paper I mean that if you take the creature stats and abilities out of the tactical meaning they can seem unequal.

From what you explained in WGE the speed of the creatures play a huge role. Each creature have a significant benefit in certain area and disadvantage in other. For example soldiers have very low speed but are very tough and have high damage so it is not advisable to take them directly."

No problems.
The most important difference is that you can't easely strike any target you wish, because the most powerful units are slow (infantry). Flyers can but they are weaker than infantry. Angels can strike Zombies at almost any time but Zombies are much stronger (if similar Power). Flyers are mobile support units that deals extra damage helping ally infantry in any point at any time, but not deals main damage solo, except attacking weak/stricken units or archers. This is the class feature of flyers (mobile but not powerful). This is how tactics work. If your unit have great speed/mobility, then it fails at damage, toughness OR initiative. And vice versa, and so about any parameter or feature.

But in original game there is a territory for fast, rushing units, that's why rushing tactics is so effective and that's why you can't increase damage to high values, because that damage dealing on the first round will break the balance.

For another example (not only champions), we can see to alternative elvish dancers. They have great speed, great initiative, great damage. But low hit points? No problem, they have great defence from agility also! Your solution is nerf this ability to almost zero, i.e. unit with the only defensive ability has low survival potential. This is not logic and not good idea to weaken normal ability to 3 times. The best solution (in my opinion) is nerf that unit's damage (not ability). Because damage dealer is the first grade of dancers (has offensive ability), but the second has defensive orientation (has defensive ability).

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 15, 2017 08:44 PM
Edited by Nargott at 20:55, 15 Sep 2017.

Quote:
@Nargott: you quoted my old calculation that was wrong, I later recalculated (but didn't write it out on the forum) the average initiative boost over 5 turns:

1 morale ~= +5.3%
2 morale ~= +11%
5 morale ~= +26.6%

If you have different numbers I'm interested to see the math.

My formula is simple: when morale is positive, it boost up to 10 / (10 - 0.4x). I.e. +25% if +5 morale.
But this is much less than initiative +25% because of the first move which is not boosting by positive morale!

Quote:
I am aware it doesn't affect necropolis, but necropolis has the slowest average initiative of all factions and no means to boost it with morale. So less problematic.

But relative initiative boost is the same. The only limitation is that necro army has low speed and can't rush, so the "Quickness of Mind" part of initiative (boost the first move) is less important. But you can rush against enemy necro, and you fails against that artifact.

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dredknight
dredknight


Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 15, 2017 09:26 PM
Edited by dredknight at 21:27, 15 Sep 2017.

Magno,

 Nargott was poking me about that "Agility" ability that is too weak. As I said above I kind of disagree because the creature itself is very strong but this does not make him wrong. Ability itself is weak and if we want more tactical variation it has to be strengthen.

I have 2 propositions:
1. Revert agility to original state +2 defense per square.
a) Pros
- Adds more tactical variation on the battlefield. The player willingness to use this unit more often in more offensive manner will be favored.
- Bonus feat - one less change compared to ToTe.
b) Cons
- Unit defensive capabilities becomes too strong. I advise making defense value 0.

Basically with 7 speed the unit can get 14*3.33 = 46.62% damage reduction.Divide it by 2 to get the average ~ 23%.

Now lets compare upgrades. Both are nearly similar but:
Regarding defense we have same hp and as a normalized defense value I take the other upgrade defense which is 4 which is about 13%.
Regarding average damage War Dancers deals about double damage.

I think this change is good to go!

The only thing I am not sure about is if +2 is strong enough on practice as when using war dancers you usually keep them away and just deal final blows while wind dancers will be constantly on the front line.

I will put this on the long list for testing.

P.S.

Even better proposal is to weaken the damage a bit and just more survivability. Props to Nargott!
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 15, 2017 09:45 PM

I offered +3, because 3 * 3.33% = 2 * 5% is the power of the ability that was in the original game.
It's logical to decrease stats up to:
3/3, 2-5 dmg
Because this is a level of downgrade, but defence isn't lower than the first grade.
This is maximal nerf, but real nerf may be something like 5/3, 3-5 dmg (the same as the first grade).

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 15, 2017 09:49 PM

The war dancer is already the offensive variant, there is no need for a second offensive variant.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 16, 2017 01:59 AM

There is mistake in naming/description of ability "Breathe attack" (dragons, fire-breathing cerberus).

There are two different abilities, because dragon breathe can damage to allies, but dogs breathe can't (not only does 75% damage). And did you testing, 75% damage is only to second-line creatures, or to the nearest non-primary targets too?

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 02:04 AM

Are you talking about english or russian translation?
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 16, 2017 02:13 AM

I'm talking about MMH5.5 Manual. Is it not actual for the game now and in game there are two different abilities with two different names and descriptions?

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 02:23 AM

No the manual and english game version are correct, the firehounds do 75% dmg to secondary targets. that is what it says.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 16, 2017 03:57 AM
Edited by Nargott at 04:00, 16 Sep 2017.

Quote:
because dragon breathe can damage to allies, but dogs breathe can't

+
Quote:
75% damage is only to second-line creatures, or to the nearest non-primary targets too?


Firedogs have up to 6 aims for attacking. The first is primary. +2 nearest (like cerberus). +3 "breathe" targets.
I almost sure that 75% damage work not only to "breathe targets" but to nearest cerberus-targets also.

I.e. firedogs splash attack is unique (and must have unique name and description), because is can't be decomposed into cerberus attack and dragon breathe attack.

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dredknight
dredknight


Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 16, 2017 10:22 AM

I believe what Nargott says is that Fire dragons and Firehounds have the same ability but the description says it works different for both of them.

Ability - "Breath Attack"
Description "During attack, this creature damages not only the target but also any other unit positioned directly behind it. Secondary targets take full damage except for Firehounds the secondary targets take 75% damage."

From what he says I think that all secondary targets take 75% damage unlike the Cerberus.

Hm.. Cerberus and Firehound upgrade both have "Three-headed attack" so your suggestion should not be correct for the nearest targets unless "Breath attack" somehow overrides "Three-headed attack".
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 16, 2017 10:43 AM
Edited by Nargott at 10:45, 16 Sep 2017.

dredknight said:
I believe what Nargott says is that Fire dragons and Firehounds have the same ability but the description says it works different for both of them.

No.
Its different abilities, because dog's breathe can't deal damage to allies.

Lava dragon hasn't breathe ability in list of his ability, but this is not correct. And do you fix the bug when lava dragon's breathe can't deal damage to allies?

All cases are mistakes of the TotE, but I think that it's good to fix them.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 11:24 AM

Quote:
Fire dragons and Firehounds have the same ability but the description says it works different for both of them.


This is correct, the behavior of the ability is defined by the pattern attack file which is different for both units

<DamageToMainTargetCoefficient>1</DamageToMainTargetCoefficient>
<DamageToOtherTargetsCoefficient>0.75</DamageToOtherTargetsCoefficient>
<DamageAll>false</DamageAll>

The description is correct except info about allies was missing.

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 16, 2017 01:24 PM

magnomagus said:
Quote:
Fire dragons and Firehounds have the same ability but the description says it works different for both of them.


This is correct, the behavior of the ability is defined by the pattern attack file which is different for both units

<DamageToMainTargetCoefficient>1</DamageToMainTargetCoefficient>
<DamageToOtherTargetsCoefficient>0.75</DamageToOtherTargetsCoefficient>
<DamageAll>false</DamageAll>

The description is correct except info about allies was missing.


I think this is very strange that the "same ability" have 3 (!) strong different sides:
1) triple breathe from dogs against single breathe from dragons
2) deal no damage to allies from dogs (very important!)
3) dogs deal 75% damage to all secondary targets including targets from another ability
On the other hand, Spray Attack and Three-Headed Attack have the same effect with no difference at all, but different names.
Or Whirlwhind and Hydra's attack.

Also, basic Hydra has no Three-Headed Attack in terms of cerberi (3 tiles). Hydra has Half-Round Attack (6 tiles). But... in Six-Headed Attack there is description of targeting 6 tiles instead of all 12 tiles? This is a mistake or you change abilities of Hydras?

I propose to make a single ability name and description for firedogs, instead of three-headed attack + breathe attack. Because it seems much clearer.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 01:56 PM

Quote:
I think this is very strange that the "same ability" have 3 (!) strong different sides:
1) triple breathe from dogs against single breathe from dragons
2) deal no damage to allies from dogs (very important!)
3) dogs deal 75% damage to all secondary targets including targets from another ability
On the other hand, Spray Attack and Three-Headed Attack have the same effect with no difference at all, but different names.
Or Whirlwhind and Hydra's attack.


The ability sharing was necessary to fix a hardcoded bug in 31j source code with Haven T6, but this is no problem:

1) Obvious
2) few more words added to description

Quote:
Also, basic Hydra has no Three-Headed Attack in terms of cerberi (3 tiles). Hydra has Half-Round Attack (6 tiles). But... in Six-Headed Attack there is description of targeting 6 tiles instead of all 12 tiles? This is a mistake or you change abilities of Hydras?



I don't remember ever touching these descriptions, but thanks for pointing out possible issue of original game.
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Dicanio
Dicanio

Tavern Dweller
posted September 16, 2017 04:20 PM

Rmg map load failed, even after using reanimator says its done still this error appears, any ideas?
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 16, 2017 04:45 PM

Is this in multiplayer LAN or hotseat?
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Dicanio
Dicanio

Tavern Dweller
posted September 16, 2017 07:46 PM
Edited by Dicanio at 20:00, 16 Sep 2017.

Lan

The strangest thing is that some maps from this mod are working and some dont, but every map generated by rmg arent working
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