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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 327 pages long: 1 40 80 120 160 200 240 ... 278 279 280 281 282 ... 320 327 · «PREV / NEXT»
Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 08:24 PM
Edited by Nargott at 21:01, 21 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
@Nargott: Can you give link to PvP map for your style of playing, I would like to check it for balance issues in H55 system.

In Heroes 5 I can't because don't like any maps (only combat and PvP arena).
In Heroes 3 there is template Diamond (L, normal guards).
But this is problematic to check this template with Heroes 5 if you don't adapt it for Heroes 5 and your mod

L of Heroes 3 maps is not equal to L of Heroes 5 maps, as long as I remember. So it is necessary to consider the scale and size of objects, and far of the heroes movement (15-20 in Heroes 3 and 25 in Heroes 5). 160x160 in Heroes 3 is equal to 320x320 in Heroes 5 or near to it (not less than 256x256).

You can say, there is very easy guards (there are no tens or hundreds of dragons), but there is optimal for beating at first several weeks, even using different armies, including armies from new towns (without using chains). The main challenge is time: to beat mobs faster than opponent and getting more awards, scouting more locations, capturing and re-capturing more towns and other important objects. And managing resources also: new towns are accessible very early, which of them to build, build economics or build armies etc.

But the general issue with Heroes 5 is slow-building towns because of 3-steps system (0-3-6-9-12-15). That's why I recommend to try using 2-steps system (0-2-4-6-8-10). Starting conditions are the same in Heroes 3: tavern + fort + tier-1.

Only normal guards are "easy" for fast beating, I think that if you bind them to normal or easy mode, then on heroic mode there will be something for long-time oriented MMH5.5 (but not for 12 months of cause ).

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 21, 2017 09:25 PM

Quote:
L of Heroes 3 maps is not equal to L of Heroes 5 maps, as long as I remember. So it is necessary to consider the scale and size of objects, and far of the heroes movement (15-20 in Heroes 3 and 25 in Heroes 5). 160x160 in Heroes 3 is equal to 320x320 in Heroes 5 or near to it (not less than 256x256).


No that is incorrect, because objects take mostly the same space in tiles, you can place the same amount of 'dolmen of knowledge' on a H5-320 as on H3-320. In H3 mapmakers often place objects closer together because it looks less weird. If you want to translate H3 map gameplay in H5 better divide movement 320/(25/15) ~ 192 x 192 map. In theory you could make them the same however.

Quote:
But the general issue with Heroes 5 is slow-building towns because of 3-steps system (0-3-6-9-12-15).


No that is your issue with it, since you don't like playing any maps. In my opinion this is a big improvement on heroes 3.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 10:28 PM
Edited by Nargott at 22:53, 21 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
No that is incorrect, because objects take mostly the same space in tiles, you can place the same amount of 'dolmen of knowledge' on a H5-320 as on H3-320. In H3 mapmakers often place objects closer together because it looks less weird. If you want to translate H3 map gameplay in H5 better divide movement 320/(25/15) ~ 192 x 192 map. In theory you could make them the same however.

Many objects in Heroes 5 are bigger, especially towns, which are enormous giant. And I had wrote the same, 160 to 256 ~ 192 to 320. At the one visible screen the map of Heroes 3 contains much more objects than map of Heroes 5.

Quote:
No that is your issue with it, since you don't like playing any maps. In my opinion this is a big improvement on heroes 3.

A big improvement at Combat and Skills but no improvement at map, town building, no asymmetric schemes of development and no tempo game, weaker awards for beating greater guards (in Heroes 5 maximum artifact is +2 to all stats, in Heroes 3 +6 to all stats), no angel/wyvern observatories, i.e. no improvement in strategical part, only degradation.
In Heroes 5 you shake at every loss every battle, because the award is usually not worth it; but in Heroes 3 if you beat strong guard you have strong award, which can compensate your big losses, so this is direct tempo support (player can attack faster but compensate his losses).

There are reasons I don't like personally standart maps of Heroes 5, but I understand players that like Heroes 5 more (and I like more but actively playing only that parts of game which like, Combat and PvP arena).
So, I don't like H5 maps, but have experience of abusing some units and features in PvE, after that don't like any hardcore PvE combat, because any such combat has a key, there is no tactics, you know key or you don't, this is a game about abusing AI weakness. For example you may take Utopia with Arcane Crystals and pair of Fury (as I remember) because Dragons can't touch crystals and so on... Maybe you fix many of that abuses, but disappointment in PvE battles has already happened and changed my opinion about what the strategic game should be built around, from PvE to PvP.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 21, 2017 10:49 PM

Quote:
no angel/wyvern observatories, i.e. no improvement in strategical part, only degradation.


I have no idea what you are talking about, what are Angel Observatories?

can you pick the english name from here:
https://www.celestialheavens.com/homam-iii/general/map-locations-3

Quote:
this is a game about abusing AI weakness. For example you may take Utopia with Arcane Crystals and pair of Fury (as I remember) because Dragons can't touch crystals and so on...


H3 is far worse in AI exploits. Also problem of both original H3 and H5 are most neutrals are single creature type. In H55 most neutrals are mixed and these issues have been dealt with.
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 21, 2017 10:55 PM

@magno, when is the new update due? Getting impatient already

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 11:00 PM
Edited by Nargott at 23:23, 21 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
I have no idea what you are talking about, what are Angel Observatories?

Griffin Conservatory (angels)
Dragon Fly Hive (wyverns)

Yes, if many of this objects are at the map, there is imbalance, but several of that is norm. You have losses but you take other units as award that compensate your losses, it is very good idea if balanced.

If you don't have any losses from battle it means one of three points:
1) you already have ultimate combination of army/hero/spells which beat anything on the map
2) battle was easy so you attack the guard too late, but attacking faster with small losses is more effective (tempo > losses)
3) you are abuser of AI weakness or resurrecting spells

Quote:
H3 is far worse in AI exploits.

Maybe. I studied this question deeply only in Heroes 5.

Quote:
In H55 most neutrals are mixed and these issues have been dealt with.

This is both good and bad at the same time. Because mixed neutrals are less evident and less convenient for orientation (by visual, you must click to determine and study all the army). Therefore, they do not cause special enthusiasm. But if the abuses are fixed only in this way, then it is necessary.
Many of stacks, especially different, do the battle more difficult, and so more time spent for it. That's why mixed armies have limited use - guarding only the best things or key objects, in my opinion.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 21, 2017 11:20 PM

Quote:
Griffin Conservatory (angels)
Dragon Fly Hive (wyverns)

Yes, if many of this objects are at the map, there is imbalance, but several of that is norm. You have losses but you take other units as award that compensate your losses, it is very good idea if balanced.


I already added this feature to battle sites in H5 + growth of guards to game timer.

Quote:
Quote:H3 is far worse in AI exploits.

Maybe. I studied this question deeply only in Heroes 5.


Try playing H3 map 'The Wayfarer', an extremely difficult map that feels completely impossible if you don't know the exploits. Be warned however once you actually have played it, the game may feel completely broken to you forever and you may never want to play it again (pretty much happened to me).
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 21, 2017 11:26 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 23:27, 21 Sep 2017.

Quote:
@magno, when is the new update due? Getting impatient already


Skeggy really got me working, I have played what feels like a 100 duels against myself constantly tweaking his numbers and settings. I have found a lot of issues (pretty much all with spells, not skillwheel or creatures), so I will make another important post about that here later before release when I'm done.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 21, 2017 11:27 PM
Edited by Nargott at 00:21, 22 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
Try playing H3 map 'The Wayfarer', an extremely difficult map that feels completely impossible if you don't know the exploits. Be warned however once you actually have played it, the game may feel completely broken to you forever and you may never want to play it again (pretty much happened to me).

Thanks, but I went through it in Heroes 5, why repeat in Heroes 3, if I don't like hardcore PvE already?
I play Heroes not for PvE but for PvP, so if PvE is not the main theme of gameplay, it can't "may feel completely broken", because there are more important things that are not broken, such as your opponent

So my opinions about mixed guards may be changed, but the main idea is: the stronger award is - the stronger guards are and more stacks to make the battle more difficult, i.e. all 7 stacks only for epic battles (not every).

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 22, 2017 12:44 AM

Quote:
In Heroes 3 there is template Diamond (L, normal guards).


because this concept is different from existing templates I'm willing to investigate, but what exactly are the settings you think are interesting:

108x108 + UG?

how many players?

water setting?
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 22, 2017 12:59 AM
Edited by Nargott at 01:08, 22 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
because this concept is different from existing templates I'm willing to investigate, but what exactly are the settings you think are interesting:

108x108 + UG?

how many players?

water setting?

What is different? Strength of guards? At "Heroic" it can be near your regular guards. Or "3D logistics" using many jumping portals because geometrically many zones can't be linked? Or too many towns?

Yes (in squares of Heroes 3). I think that this template is good for XL (144x144) also, but L is better because has more dynamic. One of the variants is XL without underground.

Usually 2 (without AI), but it's only personal preference. There are available up to 8 players which can be AI.

No water (personal preference; although I admit that somewhere there are good island maps, but did not dare to test on the template).

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 22, 2017 01:09 AM

Quote:
Usually 2 (without AI), but it's only personal preference. There are available up to 8 players which can be AI.


I generated the map, but don't understand why you want this, the map is huge for just 2 players?

There are like 10 towns per player, what are you going to do with all these towns?


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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 22, 2017 01:18 AM
Edited by Nargott at 01:29, 22 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
Quote:
Usually 2 (without AI), but it's only personal preference. There are available up to 8 players which can be AI.


I generated the map, but don't understand why you want this, the map is huge for just 2 players?

There are like 10 towns per player, what are you going to do with all these towns?



Only 8 per player (16 total). In original (Heroes 3) there are 2 villages per non-player zone, so 24 total.

What am I going to do with all these towns? Seriously? Make more count of active armies and stronger economics. Is not the same things you do in MMH5.5 playing 6+ months?
No converting towns, of cause (this is illegal in Heroes 3 and is harmful to the gameplay).

Yes, is huge - there is a big space for military action in PvP, with many fronts. You likes big maps, but you think that only two players are few? It's personal preference (no playing versus AI), there are available up to 8 players.

TE Players often played with maximal sized maps (if I do not confuse anything) only with 2 players (no AI of cause), and 4-6 weeks is enough for the game.

Diamond template is lesser (usually) and faster because of lesser guards.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 22, 2017 01:27 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 01:28, 22 Sep 2017.

Quote:
Only 8 per player (16 total). In original (Heroes 3) there are 2 villages per non-player zone, so 24 total.

What am I going to do with all these towns? Seriously? Make more armies and stronger economics. Is not the same things you do in MMH5.5 playing 6+ months?
No converting towns, of cause (this is illegal in Heroes 3 and is harmful to the gameplay).

Yes, is huge - there is big space for military action in PvP, with many fronts. You likes big maps, but you think that only two players are few? It's personal preference (no playing versus AI), there are available up to 8 players.


I have no issue with 2 players, but you were talking about games ~2 months, to me it seems extremely boring to build up 8 towns. By what months is this game normally ended?

I think if a template was made for 2 players it would have much less towns.

EDIT: Also you were the one telling me there is no difference between 2 or 20 angels. LOL!
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 22, 2017 01:36 AM
Edited by Nargott at 01:58, 22 Sep 2017.

Quote:

magnomagus said:
I have no issue with 2 players, but you were talking about games ~2 months, to me it seems extremely boring to build up 8 towns. By what months is this game normally ended?

I think if a template was made for 2 players it would have much less towns.

EDIT: Also you were the one telling me there is no difference between 2 or 20 angels. LOL!

No no no, how 2 months? Lol
2 months if heroic guards like in MMH5.5?
I wrote about 1-2 months, this means about 4 weeks, plus-minus.
The first meet is real at 1-2 weeks. So at the first week I run up to neighboring zones and some heroes run up to the next zones, where the first crossing with the enemy can occur.

Quote:
I think if a template was made for 2 players it would have much less towns.

For what? 8 towns per player, it means only half of them (4) is combat, producing creatures (another for economics). If players capture all neutral towns, but the game may be ended earlier. Why are you confused by 8 towns per player, but are not by 8 heroes per player?

Quote:
Also you were the one telling me there is no difference between 2 or 20 angels. LOL!

No converting towns!
16 / 8 = 2 towns per each fraction. And this is correct to have "mirror" town near the opponent, it's harder to conquest it.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 22, 2017 01:56 AM

Quote:
No converting towns!


But what happens if one player by accident gets 4 towns of his own faction?

Also H5 RMG allows to define the faction of the towns, so wouldn't it be better to leave out redundant space and only have the towns generated you really want?
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 22, 2017 02:00 AM
Edited by Nargott at 02:20, 22 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
But what happens if one player by accident gets 4 towns of his own faction?

Also H5 RMG allows to define the faction of the towns, so wouldn't it be better to leave out redundant space and only have the towns generated you really want?

Generate towns correctly, 2 per fraction, "mirror" town near the opponent (if it real to tune).

If your ARMG doesn't support such generation, you may tune towns manually.

No, having less towns is heretics regarding this template, so only 16 (not 24 as original)
The towns of fractions I "don't want to have" can be used for building economics.

If you set 0/2/4/6/8/10 town's steps (near to Heroes 3) instead of hated 0/3/6/9/12/15, you see that building fast economics at combat towns is not effective, so this is specialization, some towns build creatures, another - economics/magic guilds.

This is normal to have at least 3-4 towns at first week. If you understand this idea, then there will be no questions, whether it is necessary to remove excess towns.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 22, 2017 02:18 AM

Alright, I see it more clearly now, neutral resistance is practically non-existant and lots of free stuff lying around.

I did by the way add a feature to H55 to have all towns on map auto-build by script to higher level set by player, to speed up game.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 22, 2017 02:26 AM
Edited by Nargott at 07:16, 22 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
Alright, I see it more clearly now, neutral resistance is practically non-existant and lots of free stuff lying around.

I did by the way add a feature to H55 to have all towns on map auto-build by script to higher level set by player, to speed up game.

Non-existant resistance? Can you get relict artifacts at the first week? If no, than resistance is ok. If yes, than guards are tune incorrect.

Higher levels of villages is bad on this template, because saves a lot of resources. Towns are poorly protected, so also with buildings, too freebie. It's much better to do 0/2/4/6/8/10 steps at least for the modification version for this map.

EDIT: You can't get major artifacts at the first week and relic artifacts at the first and second week - if it is correct than resistance is ok, for this type of game (faster).

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 22, 2017 02:33 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 02:38, 22 Sep 2017.

Quote:
Non-existant resistance?


Compared to H5 RMG Strong or more.

EDIT: H5 RMG setting is probably one below medium or medium.

Quote:
Higher levels of villages is bad on this template, because saves a lot of resources.


My first setting only builds all very cheap buildings, not much in resources but saves a lot of opening and closing TC.

So practically creates 0/2/4/6/8/10 without ruining other maps.
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