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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 399 pages long: 1 50 100 150 200 250 ... 279 280 281 282 283 ... 300 350 399 · «PREV / NEXT»
strigvir
strigvir


Adventuring Hero
posted September 22, 2017 04:00 AM

Nargott, have you played at least one full H5.5 game? Sounds like you didn't, as your posts show a complete lack of understanding for any H5.5 features. How anyone would defend the cancer of TotE 2% skills, is beyond me.
Also you imply H3 PvP is the best thing ever, when in reality they ban all "OP" skills and spells on top of every game coming down to clearing observatories/hives and thus spamming Archs/Wyvs, regardless of faction.

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 22, 2017 07:37 AM
Edited by Nargott at 08:27, 22 Sep 2017.

Quote:

strigvir said:
H5.5 features. How anyone would defend the cancer of TotE 2% skills, is beyond me.
Also you imply H3 PvP is the best thing ever, when in reality they ban all "OP" skills and spells on top of every game coming down to clearing observatories/hives and thus spamming Archs/Wyvs, regardless of faction.

Because 2% skills are not cancer for levels <= 20. You don't understand that these are RARE skils which your class normally can't get, but sometimes can.
Having 7 good accessible skills, 9 or 12 - there is no clear answer to it if you don't know your final level.
I never play after 25 level, not MMH5.5, neither Heroes 5 and Heroes 3 too, and don't want to do it, but undestand specicifics of it, that you must have at least your 8 slots to fit and having only 9 accessible skills are few in this conditions.

Quote:
Also you imply H3 PvP is the best thing ever, when in reality they ban all "OP" skills and spells on top of every game coming down to clearing observatories/hives and thus spamming Archs/Wyvs, regardless of faction.

No. Heroes 3 is very unbalanced game if you are not limited in several things.
But I speak not about balance, but about gameplay which strategically is brilliance at maps of Heroes 3. Especially on the Diamond template, when I had opened this template, I have never play any other map because Diamond far exceeds other maps and 100% formed the style of the playing that I like in Heroes (and cardinally influenced my opinions about what should be the turn-based strategy). Fast many towns, free movement on the map, many directions for action and complex scouting - this is what I like, because this is supports the broadest range of strategies at full time, without long waiting: rush, harrasment, scouting, expansion, development and push (timing attacks).
While classic Heroes 5 style of playing support only one aspect - developing, other aspects are significantly limited. In MMH5.5 you add expansion (many actual towns) also, thanks for long timing. But there is no fast expansion nevertheless.

That I really hate on the maps of Heroes 5 (I mean TotE), is what the hell is a designer deciding what type of strategy I must play. If I want scouting why I was locked in the starting zone or neighbour zones without the possibility of exit until I accumulate troops to break through the guard? If I want expansion why I can seize additional towns too late, when they are no longer needed in terms of providing powerful troops? If I want rush why should I wait until the enemy develops to higher technologies at the first month? And etc. Am I limiting only because some players who don't want that someone prevented them from fully developing on the map, and this is in strategic game which is about confrontation between two players?
If a game supports only development that is more RPG than strategy, because in strategy it is one of the many supporting types of playing.

And what I hate also in settings of the map, is overpowered guards (espessially between zones), yes this is challenge, but only if you are playing PvE, but not playing the strategy, because powerful guards limiting you very much with choosing your strategies, shifting the emphasis from the strategy to bare tactics, with the most inferior variant of tactics - against AI troops.

Light guards is challenge too, if you play not going into a very later game, if you play strategy against your opponent, using time as key resource for winning.

Sorry if I severely criticized some aspects of the game which many players like (espesially single players), but this is only my private opinion, try looking the game at clear strategic view

Quote:
down to clearing observatories/hives and thus spamming Archs/Wyvs, regardless of faction.

I wrote that problem is not observatories, but their huge amount in the map. If there is no spam, that it's ok, one or two times gain such boosting is normal.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 22, 2017 08:27 AM
Edited by Elvin at 08:35, 22 Sep 2017.

2% skills are not just a lategame issue. For instance, give sylvan warmachines in first 5 levels or logistics to academy..

Btw your complaints are not about H5 gameplay rather than template design and generation. H5 is not all that lacking in adventure map content or gameplay functions compared to H3. What is problematic though, is that faction balance is dynamic throughout the game with each faction having a serious edge in early, mid or lategame. That necessitates some artificial limits to prevent rusher factions from dominating everything in the first 3 weeks but at the same time, those factions will have to develop really fast to prevent the dominance of the lategame factions.

For me, the problem has always been the scaling of hero level, army strength and skills. Warmachines are great early but after a month or two they decline. Destructive similarly has an expiration date while dark and light keep getting better as the armies grow. In H3 this was less of an issue because a magic school would not limit you to either buffs or destructive, nor were warmachines that all-powerful early. Also, while H5 skill system is far deeper than H3 could ever be, its design makes getting the right ability at the right moment potentially game-changing. Or missing that particular ability a real pain. I kinda wish Nival had done some additional tweaking so as to curb the differences a bit between early, mid and lategame. Also, a better skill/ability filtering system for level ups would have helped enormously. If you are good at levelling you will rarely get unwanted builds but getting an ability or skill early or late can mean a world of difference.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 22, 2017 08:32 AM
Edited by Nargott at 09:34, 22 Sep 2017.

Elvin said:
the problem has always been the scaling of hero level, army strength and skills

Yes, this is true. That's why I prefer only earlier-game oriented balance, because if balance supporting late game, than earlier game is poor (at strategical view). And as a player I don't like to go through the poor stage of the game with bound hands. And this is only personal preference, of cause
Heroes 3 has earlier-game oriented balance (you can theoretically build 7 tier at the first week in most cases, so it is the top technology and this is available at 1st week). But in later game it is no good because of inequality of 7 tier, abusing Town Portals and Door Dimensions having much mana to cast.

Quote:
rather than template design and generation

Maybe. I can't say about all maps, because I don't check them all.
But slow speed of town development, it is a characteristic not depending on the map. If I need 2 weeks for developing town up to top technologies, than I need the same time for any seized neutral towns, 2 weeks waiting per town to start producing top creatures is very long time! So I can't fully use my seized neutral towns if the game is around 1st month, especially if had captured them after the first week.

Heroes 3 was a game about many towns and mixed armies, it was typical long before Diamond. When Heroes 5 was about one-fraction army without any mixes. Therefore, from a strategic (not lore) point of view, heroes 3 are better at this aspect. The main thing is not Heroes 3 is better or Heroes 5 is better, but to get the most strong aspects of each game, and if it's possible to carry it in the game.

Sorry, if I far gone into offtopic, if the author says that this discussion is enough, and there is nothing more to extract for the MMH5.5, then we should stop.

The common idea is after 1st or 2nd month there is nothing to do on the map, because developing is ended. But Magnomagus prefer improving PvE so it will be playable after that times, while I prefer supporting earlier game not reaching the stage when development completely stops.

Quote:
2% skills are not just a lategame issue. For instance, give sylvan warmachines in first 5 levels or logistics to academy..

This (rare skills) is conceptual difference between classes, so you don't complain that the Knight or Paladin is inaccessible to Dark magic in MMH5.5 (0%)? Although Dark is very good for them.
2% skills is soft analogue of 0% skills (having chance but small, no guarantees).

For example (in TotE), Defence is always very strong skill oriented against Might. You like to get it often when playing any magic class, but only for necromancer/runemage is good available, so playing wizard/warlock you must create your build around other key skills in most cases. This is strong, principled class difference.

4% Defence? Hmm... in PvE class can't use this skill often, but to time of PvP he has very good chances to get it, so no principled class difference in PvP at this aspect.

So, even in current system of MMH5.5 there is another one way to make class difference more, if putting some skills from 8/10/12% to 4% section (swap skills). Because (although 4% is not 2%) 4% and 8-12% has much bigger difference than between 8% and 12%.

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Lutscha
Lutscha

Tavern Dweller
posted September 22, 2017 09:32 AM
Edited by Lutscha at 09:33, 22 Sep 2017.

Is just wanted to add, that I really like that mod. The only things I miss are the ultimates (op or not in PVE thats fine) and I think the skill wheel is a bit too generic as some of the racial perks are missing (e. g. nature's luck) and all skills have the same perks for all races, althougf some remain race specific (e. g. shield wall).

Being a Fortress fan, I miss Inga's rune ability as well.

I guess a PVE version is too much to ask for.

Other than that the mod is vastly superior to the original

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 22, 2017 09:38 AM

Nargott said:

But slow speed of town development, it is a characteristic not depending on the map. If I need 2 weeks for developing town up to top technologies, than I need the same time for any seized neutral towns, 2 weeks waiting per town to start producing top creatures is very long time! So I can't fully use my seized neutral towns if the game is around 1st months, especially if had captured them after the first week.

Town development is hardly slow. If you start with a lvl 3 town(tavern and t1 dwelling) you can have castle and tier 7 by end of week 2. Just creep aggressively and get gold instead of xp. I don't get what you are saying about neutral towns being slow to build either, it's not that different from H3. Hell, in H3 you sometimes had to build fort which is a lot more expensive than in H5. If you are referring to starting town level that's up to the mapmaker or template.

Nargott said:
Heroes 3 was a game about many towns and mixed armies, it was typical long before Diamond. When Heroes 5 was about one-fraction army without any mixes. Therefore, from a strategic (not lore) point of view, heroes 3 are better at this aspect.

Yes, a pity. One of my best H5 games involved mixed armies in a week 3 battle but that's not something you see often in multiplayer.
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 22, 2017 09:43 AM

@Nargott
It sounds like all you know and enjoy as a style in playing heroes games is PvP rush tactics purely focused on just winning.

That is only one of many ways a person can enjoy playing a heroes game, and since all your criticism revolve around your extremely subjective and limited point of view, they do little in terms of going beyond coming off as petty whining.

Town and hero development (beyond level 20) along with adventure map conquering enriched with (hopefully good) story-telling is what differentiates a heroes game from a simple final-battle-oriented game, those I believe are the main features of heroes gameplay that made heroes such a legendary game series in years. What makes a heroes game more special maybe is that it also enables (through map design) rush-tactics-based gameplay, which again seems like the only gameplay you enjoy (unfortunately for you, because you're missing out on a lot).

It essentially comes down to map design. There are many awesome H3 maps one can enjoy as a single player, with terrific story-telling and interesting challenges till the end. There are also many H5 games that keeps you on your toes from day one with pretty much a requirement to rush to have chance to win.



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Lure_of_Lilith
Lure_of_Lilith


Adventuring Hero
2nd Level, Expert Blind
posted September 22, 2017 09:47 AM

Lovin' this mod. Wondering if there was still anything you could do to improve the Graphics with the next update?
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 22, 2017 09:49 AM
Edited by Nargott at 10:29, 22 Sep 2017.

Elvin said:
I don't get what you are saying about neutral towns being slow to build either, it's not that different from H3. Hell, in H3 you sometimes had to build fort which is a lot more expensive than in H5. If you are referring to starting town level that's up to the mapmaker or template.

Yes, expensive fort was strong limit which I hate (but understand why is expensive).
In Heroes 3 if you seized neutral town and have enough resources (and if later than more resources you have), you can build up to top technologies even with lesser days spent than building the main town, which was limited by this resources on the first week. So, sometimes you come into 7 tier simultaneously at main and secondary town, and sometimes in secondary town even faster (if its 7 tier is cheaper and more accessible).

thGryphn said:
It sounds like all you know and enjoy as a style in playing heroes games is PvP rush tactics purely focused on just winning.

No only rush (but rush available!) but playing against and around your opponent firstly. It is correct for any complete strategy game.

Quote:
which again seems like the only gameplay you enjoy (unfortunately for you, because you're missing out on a lot).

Not only. Rush is attack when opponent is not ready, not developed enough, so if he can build tier-7 on the first week (his top tech), then attacking on the second/third week is no rush, but timing attack (which is key concept to know when you must attack your opponent and when not).
So I really like timing attacks because they means that you correctly choose time (key resource) for attacking. This is strategical decision. But attacking when you are already build all that possible (development is complete totally) is not strategic, because you ignore your opponents' advantages and disadventages of his development process.
So it's more correctly to count me no rusher (although I understand that any timing attack for you = rush) but PvP-oriented only player.

thGryphn said:
That is only one of many ways a person can enjoy playing a heroes game, and since all your criticism revolve around your extremely subjective and limited point of view, they do little in terms of going beyond coming off as petty whining.

My point of view is limited (I ignore PvE interests because outgrew that stage when it was interesting for me) but limited with genre specifics (strategy). So you chan choose those ideas which are good for strategy and doesn't harm your PvE.

I love strategy genre more than love Heroes, yes, it is.

EDIT:
(about timing attacks)
Timing attacks also unblock other useful strategic tools like a scouting and reading what to do your opponent now. If you can't read you may loss, it's fair, without it scouting seems not to be powerful tool.
The main idea of timing attacks is attack when you are stronger than your opponent, and build you strategy around concrete moment of time when you have maximum power and chances against your opponent (do not forget that you must scouting him to make sure that your attack will be successful).
Whatever it was, I believe that having many strategic tools is better than having only one really working (naked development).

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted September 22, 2017 10:14 AM

Good points, Elvin & Nargott.

For me, the diversity Heroes 5 offers strategically is a boon. Depending on the map this casts you into different strategic situations, which require creative thinking to overcome the challenges. Only playing one style of maps, for example Diamond, would be way too limiting for me, because many players like to explore. Part of the charm is that scouting is important, that you first have to go smartly about what type(s) of challenges you have at hand.

As Nargott said, balance in many different ways, from skills to town builds, can be a problem if it skews the gameplay in a way that is not strategic.

What you were discussing is whether the Heroes game can be balanced in a way to accomodate all maps fairly. Doubtful that this is possible on its own.

In principle AI can solve this. The AI can ensure that starting conditions for all factions are balanced. The idea is to have a more dynamic map setup, in which guard levels, dwellings, mines, resources could be dynamically balanced. There are two ways to do this: first, the AI could modify the map; second, the AI can determine relative difficulty ratings and impose penalties or boosts respectively, if desired. Just knowing the relative challenge ratings would be a progress though, so that you could select a starting position with a challenge rating that suits you, for example a challenge rating 1.5 (above normal) or 0.7 (easier).

There are of course more simple things that can be valuable as well. For example, the player could get the option to choose whether he wants a game setup with rush factions or factions that have to build up persistently. Town portal and dimension door could be disabled, overpowered combat spells limited, level up skilling modified, present factions determined and so on.

This says effectively, the root of the problem are the maps themselves, whether they are generated by RMG or crafted by hand, because the map designer normally doesn't understand all the complexities of the gameplay and challenges that can occur on a map. Let alone different player preferences. As a consequence a way to alter these on game setup would benefit the game.

Part of my work is to enable the AI to grade map difficulty, starting position difficulty and player performance. That's kind of the groundwork necessary for the solution envisioned above.

Grading of player performance is an interesting subject and could be done for all maps you play, so that the game knows how good you are. It can be detailed, measuring your performance strategically, how good you are with scouting, creeping, resource management, town builds, and tactically. Once the AI knows this it can match map difficulty and player performance for recommending a game setup, that you can customize as you see fit.

Sounds like a nice theoretic concept with little practical value? Not so, my friends. It's about to become real.

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Fidanas
Fidanas


Adventuring Hero
posted September 22, 2017 10:36 AM

Bless you...

My deepest thanks and appreciation for this revival of a beloved game. May the force be with you.

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 22, 2017 10:38 AM
Edited by Nargott at 11:34, 22 Sep 2017.

Quantomas said:
What you were discussing is whether the Heroes game can be balanced in a way to accomodate all maps fairly.  Doubtful that this is possible on its own.

Yes, of cause. Warcraft 3 has many different maps for it. Have DOTA for fanats of that genre. But that fact the DOTA (conditionally, although not exactly "analogue" of PvE) maps are exist, does not force a player to play it. The player simply can ignore such maps and play the strategic maps that he likes.

It is good if MMH5.5 would take into account the interests of not only pure PvE, but also pure PvP and have balance working and interesting at earlier stage of game.
There is theoretical rare chance that Magnomagus look into Diamond template not only at "weak PvE resistance" point, but at strategical point of view (I reccomend to play it at original Heroes 3 to avoid errors of adapting). Because this template radically change my opinions unblocking many strategic tools (more than any global modification including WOG and MMH5.5 at current state) and can do it with other people, if they know it well enough.

Quote:
Sounds like a nice theoretic concept with little practical value? Not so, my friends. It's about to become real.

Do you plan to return improving AI at this game?

Quote:
Part of the charm is that scouting is important, that you first have to go smartly about what type(s) of challenges you have at hand.

Scouting neutrals, but scouting an opponent is an absolutely different thing. Neutrals have no plans, they just stand still.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 22, 2017 11:08 AM

Quantomas said:
Sounds like a nice theoretic concept with little practical value? Not so, my friends. It's about to become real.


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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted September 22, 2017 11:35 AM

Nargott said:
Do you plan to return improving AI at this game?

The work continued all these years.

It's a much bigger work than merely developing advanced AI heuristics. It more closely resembles building an AI that can understand how the game works and develop strategies accordingly.

It's intended as an AI showcase, to demonstrate what AI can really do for a game. Using Heroes 5 for this is of course a mind-boggling route to follow because of its complexity. But hey, you never grow to full strength if you do not face the challenge fully.

There are two immediate goals. First, the game has to be much faster, like H3 fast. Second, strategically it should implement the full arsenal of tools, to see how good competitive players fare against a fully developed AI that can develop strategic plans.

That has never been done before. Go and chess have rulesets that are too clear-cut, which enables a design based on tactical scenarios augmented by throwing huge computing power at the problem.

It's truly the complexity, essentially all the things you can do, what makes a Heroes game a Heroes game and strategically interesting beyond honing your skills.

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 22, 2017 12:06 PM
Edited by Nargott at 12:25, 22 Sep 2017.

thGryphn said:
Town and hero development (beyond level 20) along with adventure map conquering

Level 20 can be reached at 3rd or 4th weeks if normal guards.
Do you determine attacking with such hero as rush?

thGryphn said:
enriched with (hopefully good) story-telling

You are about RPG component of the game which is unlikely to be present on multiplayer maps (unlike singleplayer maps or campaign).
If a player wants story-telling, he usually plays singleplayer. Or not competitive but cooperative multiplayer mode. This is a next idea how you can improve the game (this time - PvE), creating cooperative maps that specialized in team working.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 22, 2017 12:34 PM

Hero level is very map dependent even with the better creeping conditions. In some toh maps it was possible to hit lvl 14-17 during week 2 for instance. In ubi maps not so much. It's boring if you cannot develop at your own pace anyway. It is exciting being able to take on a pack of tier 7 during week 2. Suicidal as much as an educated guess ^^
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 22, 2017 12:42 PM
Edited by Nargott at 12:54, 22 Sep 2017.

Elvin said:
Hero level is very map dependent even with the better creeping conditions. In some toh maps it was possible to hit lvl 14-17 during week 2 for instance. In ubi maps not so much. It's boring if you cannot develop at your own pace anyway. It is exciting being able to take on a pack of tier 7 during week 2. Suicidal as much as an educated guess ^^

Yes, its fun challenge to beat tier 7 at week 2. Not to beat hundreds of tier 7 at month of 6 but to bit several such creatures earlier.
What about levelling - it's also true, but leveling speed can be also tuned at the game, so optimal tempo (in my opinions) is near +1 levelup per day until you reach ~15 level, then slow down.

P.S. See what means "pack" (10-19), so it's more suicidal/abusing decision (like attacking Dragon Utopia), but attacking 5-9 tier 7 at week 2 is more attractive option.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 22, 2017 12:59 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 13:42, 22 Sep 2017.

@Quantomas & Nargott:

Please let me clarify a few things:

1. When MMH5.5 was first released, the game seemed pretty much dead and games always first have to need to be played by a huge amount of people in singleplayer before any multiplayer starts to exist. Therefore the focus of the project was singleplayer so I recommended people to generate maps with strong guards or above to make the game more challenging in singleplayer and I also generated the demo maps with such guards. (design was inspired by popular singleplayer TBS, King's Bounty: The legend)

EDIT: I realize people now perceive this as 'H55 style gameplay' in contrast to other styles of gameplay, but the reality is this is just map design, not gamemechanics design.

2. The H55 RMG is capable of generating Diamond-like templates, the primary differences between current H55 demo maps and those templates is: much weaker neutrals, more free stuff on the ground & lots of zone connections. All those options are already build in the RMG and the new user settings of H55, which allow neutrals both inside and outside buildings to be adjusted to ANY possible strength.

3. The only real essential differences are: H5 heroes walk further because H5 objects are further apart (looks weird if close) and towns in H5 are significantly more expensive ~(100000 vs 180000). Therefore to replicate diamond, there probably has to be even more free stuff (possible) and/or towns need to have some buildings prebuilt to keep up the pace (also already possible).

Quote:
The AI can ensure that starting conditions for all factions are balanced. The idea is to have a more dynamic map setup, in which guard levels, dwellings, mines, resources could be dynamically balanced.


If this means enforcing another vision on the map after the player has adjusted the settings I would strongly advice against it. Every player has different tastes for all these conditions and some don't even want balance. If you look back in this thread you will see I kept adding user setting after user setting to try to keep up with all desired scenarios.
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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 22, 2017 01:10 PM
Edited by Nargott at 13:32, 22 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
1. When MMH5.5 was first released, the game seemed pretty much dead and games always first have to need to be played by a huge amount of people in singleplayer before any multiplayer starts to exist. Therefore the focus of the project was singleplayer so I recommended people to generate maps with strong guards or above to make the game more challenging in singleplayer and I also generated the demo maps with such guards.

It is normal, all of us have start with singleplayer. The question is where is point of stopping, whether the player is satisfied with a single player or he wants something much more, the same is about PvE.

Quote:
3. The only real essential differences are: H5 heroes walk further because H5 objects are further apart (looks weird if close) and towns in H5 are significantly more expensive ~(100000 vs 180000). Therefore to replicate diamond, there probably has to be even more free stuff (possible) and/or towns need to have some buildings prebuilt to keep up the pace (also already possible).

In original Diamond there are 2 villages per neutral zone (16 zones - 24 towns), so in Heroes 5 you may put only one instead two (16 zones - 16 towns). Because towns in Heroes 5 are enormous compared to Heroes 3 and can not be compactly arranged.

I don't recommend to change the number of free stuff (awards? resources? gold?) without testing. Because the player can't build ALL his towns for units (not enough resources), only chosen half of them, while another towns build to eco/magic. It is more correct to compared pair of specialized towns (units + eco/magic) with the one fully developped town. There must always be a "stress" on resources, that the player was built selectively, not choosing the most powerful building for each of his town simultaneously. Must be economical challenge, this is more important aspect than PvE challenge (at this template). And builging tier-7 on the first week (7 day) must be a challenge (except necro dragons which are weak).

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 22, 2017 01:46 PM

I think considering the extra 'weight' towns have in H5 the gameplay would indeed be much better with 16 than 24 towns.

Free resources can actually be fine-tuned by the player with 5 different settings.
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