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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 381 pages long: 1 50 100 150 200 250 ... 280 281 282 283 284 ... 300 350 381 · «PREV / NEXT»
Lure_of_Lilith
Lure_of_Lilith


Adventuring Hero
2nd Level, Expert Blind
posted September 22, 2017 03:59 PM

Not sure if you saw my reply there, Magno, but I was wondering if there was still anything you could do to improve the Graphics with the next update?
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 22, 2017 04:11 PM

I'm currently not working on graphics, except for the snow blindness and white water issues.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 22, 2017 04:27 PM

@Nargott:

In picture L, if 1 = Haven, then which of letters A-H is supposed to be the 2nd Haven town?


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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 22, 2017 04:35 PM

magnomagus said:
In picture L, if 1 = Haven, then which of letters A-H is supposed to be the 2nd Haven town?

E, F, G or H.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 22, 2017 07:47 PM
Edited by thGryphn at 19:48, 22 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
@Nargott:

In picture L, if 1 = Haven, then which of letters A-H is supposed to be the 2nd Haven town?



1-G
2-B
3-C
4-F
5-E
6-D
7-H
8-A

Perfectly symmetric

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 23, 2017 12:38 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 01:03, 23 Sep 2017.

Alright so now this thread has calmed down a bit, I can post my current findings on balance.

I have played a huge amount of duels comparing 5 week, 10 week and 20 week growth and the verdict is magic is in various cases still underpowered in late game, but they also have some issues that overpower them (both early and sometimes even late)

In duels with shatter skills involved Light Magic is underpowered, this is assuming that in (long enough) games magic has 2 magic schools and might has 1 shatter. If the shatter does NOT shatter light, but the other school, the magic hero has a problem if it has to rely mostly on Light.

The problem is Light does not have a spell like Frenzy, Puppet Master or Strong destructive spells that results in a big loss for might without the hero's army taking any losses.

The tier 5 spells in Light are reactive and only start to be useful later when the hero is likely already too far behind.

The following spells are so strong they can probably be considered level 6

Frenzy
Puppet Master
Conjure Phoenix (but only with very high spellpower, and elemental balance neutralizes it completely)
Phantom Forces (only late game when tier 5-7 creature damage gets better than destructive)

Arcane Armor can be boosted to become of similar power as the above spells and I think that is the solution, if this spell makes a tier 5-7 temporarily invulnerable it has similar effect on battle as frenzy, puppet or phantom. This means it can be renamed 'Celestial Shield' and moved to Light magic tier 5 and will cost 30 mana. Alternative is moving phantom forces in light and rename it 'mirror image', but this spell is less reliable so I have some doubts.

EDIT: Also the extra gain for magic heroes on mass endurance & mass righteous might is too weak. I want to increase the spellpower
dependency on those spells to make them even better for magic and worse for might. This is no issue for might since they gain plenty of power from mass haste & mass divine strength.

Puppet master will be renamed and take place of Arcane Armor in Summoning school.
Divine Vengeance can drop to level 4, because early game it is quite weak so it doesn't matter.
Hero attack needs to do more DMG vs Phoenix, otherwise magic hero dropping an arcane armor on top of it can cause it to become unbeatable and overpowered.

This brings me to my next idea:

Change name of Magical Immunity to Spell Cloak and make it possible to cast on enemies AND friendlies then move it to Dark Magic tier 4 with suitable new icon (already have it) and higher cost.

This improves game in many ways:

1. Spell itself offers more tactical moves.
2. Spell was similar in purpose to cleansing in same school. (I know it is better, but tactically it adds much more to dark than to light)
3. Might heroes who only rely on Dark, have access to a 'cleansing like' spell.
4. Amount of spells between all schools is perfectly balanced again.

Next topic, there are a lot of issues with mana costs in destructive, I have made an estimation of how much every spell is approximately supposed to cost if you calculate how many Lightning Bolts it is worth
So I use LBs as currency and cost for 1 LB = 6 (not 4):

Fireball 3xLB for the DMG + 1 for additional effects = 24 mana
Meteor Shower ~4.5x LB = 27 mana
Circle of Winter = 3x Ice Bolt = 21 mana
Implosion 2.5xLB = 15 mana, but can remain a little higher because of DMG concentration.
Chain Lightning ~2.5x LB = Let's keep it 16
Deep Freeze 2x LB + Vulnerability, cost is Ok
Word of Light  = between 5-7 LBs if it actually hits ~32 mana
Armageddon 1.5xLB x 14= 126, but since you hit yourself let's divide by 4 ~ 32 mana

Because of the huge (and totally justifiable cost increase on Fireball & Circle) I want  to tweak the Stone Spikes. In early game Fireball is not going to be worth the cost in PvE. Stone Spikes will now cost 10 mana, have more useful formula and take the place of Fireball as PvE Area spammer.

Now really every destructive spell has a role to play, for all levels there will be a spamming spell and a problem solver. For example on level 4 Chain lightning will be the spamming spell, so it is good it is cheap and weaker.

Other balance improvements not related to spells:

-Might boosts on Formations/Armor Spikes will not have delays (since might is weaker early)
-Chilling Bones +6 defense for living heroes.
-Dark Emissary +3 morale for living heroes.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 23, 2017 01:23 AM
Edited by magnomagus at 01:24, 23 Sep 2017.

Image of early test version, final result may be different:


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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 23, 2017 02:53 AM

Why is Ice Bolt 7 mana? Only in early game it is better than LB and then the damage is not very high anyway. It should cost at most 6 mana, if LB is 6.

Your area-spell value calculations seems arbitrary but I like the result. Except for CoW, which should be 18.

Chain Lightning actually should be 3xLB: (32+16+8+4)/20 = 3.

Deep Freeze and Implosion should be same at 18, imo.

Armageddon should be at least 48. With magic resistance, damage reduction perks as well as creature immunities, you can avoid most of the damage as its caster.

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dabuthegreat
dabuthegreat


Adventuring Hero
posted September 23, 2017 07:32 AM

Ok, I agree with almost all the changes proposed in here except for one - Phantom Forces. It strips Summoning from one of the most useful spells and gives it to Light where it will be more broken I think. Light heroes are often more might oriented than summoning heroes and duplicating a stack with it can be too much.

Summoning was great in that regard that is was a jack of all trades and Phantom Forces was a perfect example of that. I think Light will just tear through all resistance on the map without any losees, with Arcane Armor + Resurection + Phantom Forces. And Summoning will need lacks any unit buffs right now.

But that's just my opinion

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 23, 2017 08:24 AM
Edited by Nargott at 09:36, 23 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
So I use LBs as currency and cost for 1 LB = 6 (not 4):

Fireball 3xLB for the DMG + 1 for additional effects = 24 mana
Meteor Shower ~4.5x LB = 27 mana
Circle of Winter = 3x Ice Bolt = 21 mana
Implosion 2.5xLB = 15 mana, but can remain a little higher because of DMG concentration.
Chain Lightning ~2.5x LB = Let's keep it 16
Deep Freeze 2x LB + Vulnerability, cost is Ok
Word of Light  = between 5-7 LBs if it actually hits ~32 mana
Armageddon 1.5xLB x 14= 126, but since you hit yourself let's divide by 4 ~ 32 mana


These are incorrect coefficients. You tested magic when it was very weak (against the backdrop of a huge amount of meat), so do not notice the influence of following important thing:
Targeting the first target is more important than second, third etc. for area spells.
So if your fireball is targeting 3 targets, then it's much weaker than spell with x3 power but targeting single target.
Because there are stacks with bigger or lesser priority/importance and with bigger or lesser vulnerability (high tier with great defence has more vulnerability).

I have much PvP playing and balancing combat experience and derived the following patterns:
Power of the spell ~ (area squares ^ 0.25) realatively to single targeting:

Stone Spikes = 1.5 (original was 1.25?)
Fireball = 1.75 (original was 1.5)
Circle of Winter = 1.7 (original was 1.5)
Meteor Shower = 2.25 (original was 2.0)
Chain Lightning = 1.25 (original was 1.5 - very weak spell)
Firewall (without counting duration) = 1.35

damaging all enemies = 4.0 (but for Words is lesser, ~3.0 because of situational)
damaging all = 1.6 (or 2.0 if armageddon +central damage)

For your game, this counts may be slightly higher (but not much), because of 2 factors:
1) high tier has less vulnerability (because his 3.33% stats are weaker than 5%, so power per 1 hp is less), so single targeting is a little weaker
2) if a magic is very weak (and on ~6 month is very weak), so opponent has more motivation to ignore your area spells, and don't try to counter it, so area effects play a little better
So it is very big difference if your Meteor Shower kills only ~5-10% of each stack, or if it kills ~50% of each stack, so enemy never let you to have more than 2-3 targets to it.

Further, if you think that the spell is 2 times stronger, then its price for mana should be at least 4 times higher.
For example, you have empowered spells with x1.5 power but x2 mana cost, and this is very strong perk (i.e. x1.5 power > x2 mana).

thGryphn said:
Chain Lightning actually should be 3xLB: (32+16+8+4)/20 = 3.

This is such example where "math is not working" because you have incorrect math model ingoring combat factors, priorities and vulnerabilities of targets and usability of spell.
All other targets except the one, player can't control. There may be less priority enemy targets, or even your units (and it's more difficult to avoid it than from casting area spells), so usability of this spell is very limiting. If you can targeting only enemies AND simultaneosly choosing the most important stack as the first target (and if your opponent don't try to counter your chain lightning) so this is a maximal brilliant case for Chain Lightning like as having 3+ stacks in 3x3 area for fireball.

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 23, 2017 09:12 AM
Edited by dredknight at 09:14, 23 Sep 2017.

@Magno I agree and can relate with all you have found.

I find magic class heroes that start or use light as only (or primary) school to have a hard time at any stage of the game because light boosts are just not enough to make difference early game and the trend continues in the later stages because the hero falls behind. So all the changes are awesome! Also by moving immunity out of light now it is not possible a hero to have 2 dispel spells at once which was another show stopper for light.

I understand the reason behind Chilling bones but what is the reason behind emissary of darkness? It dumps dark magic by 50% but this is for everyone and not for Undead only (at least what it says in description).


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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted September 23, 2017 09:20 AM
Edited by Nargott at 09:46, 23 Sep 2017.

I also duplicate here the ideas about Light (using google translation, sorry for English).
So this is illustration how I see magic if the game is later and players have enormous 200-300+ mana, where knowledge becomes weak.
Top spells are expensive but have more power, so utilizing high knowledge as MAGIC parameter.
Mana daily regeneration is 2 per knowledge (not 1).

Quote:
1) Divine Strength: 50/65/80/100% (5 mana) - ok
(massive for all troops)

1) Haste: 10/15/20/25% + 0.33 * SP (6 mana)
Offer: 10/15/20/25% (5 mana)
Why: Dependence on SP is not needed here, it is analogous to Divine Strength, but dispersing damage through initiative.
(massive for all troops)

2) Endurance: 4/4/6/8 + 0.1 / 0.15 / 0.15 / 0.15 * SP (6 mana)
Offer: (SP + 20) * 0.2 / 0.3 / 0.4 / 0.5 (10 mana) or the same 4/6/8/10 + 0.2 / 0.3 / 0.4 / 0.5 * SP
(Mass version of the spell is 4x4)

2) Deflect Missile: 40/45/50/55% + 0.5 * SP (7 mana, level 3)
Offer: 40/50/60/70% (10 mana, 2nd level)
(Mass version of the spell is 4x4)

3) Cleansing: 40/50/70/90% + 0.1 * SP (10 mana, 2 level)
Offer: 40/60/80/100% (20 mana, 3rd level)
Why: it's necessary to tie a chance on both the SP and the level, complicating the calculations to the player.
(Mass version of the spell is 4x4)

Why Cleansing is higher than Deflect Missile:
- universal spell
- The key (irreplaceable) spell against Darkness, allows heroes with a small SP to neutralize expensive and powerful spells of heroes with a large SP
- allows you to simultaneously shoot several spells from the target / targets

3) Righteous Might: 4/4/6/8 + 0.1 / 0.15 / 0.15 / 0.15 * SP (6 mana)
Offer: (SP + 20) * 0.2 / 0.3 / 0.4 / 0.5 (20 mana) or the same 4/6/8/10 + 0.2 / 0.3 / 0.4 / 0.5 * SP
(Mass version of the spell is 4x4)
Why is more valuable than Endurance:
- a higher level spell (ie, even the developers of the original game realized that it was stronger)
- the dot version accelerates the active, not the passive, target
- The sharp version very well disperses shooters
- A key spell for heroes who kill troops

4) Regeneration: 30/40/50/60% + 7/8/9/10 * SP, duration 2 + 0.1 * SP (8 mana, 3rd level)
Offer: 0% + 25 * SP, duration 1/2/3/4 rounds (40 mana, 4th level)

4) Magical Immunity: 2/3/4/5 (16 mana)
Suggestion: you can aim both your own and your enemies (40 mana)

4) Teleportation (10 mana)
Offer: 40 mana

5) Word of Light: (SP + 10) * 8/10/12/14 (16 mana, 4th level)
Offer: 10/15/20/30 * SP (80 mana, level 5)
Note: Similar spells must be very expensive, so that they do not throw every turn.

5) Resurrection: 90/120/150/180 + 20/25/30/40 * SP, reducing HP by 16% -0.2 * SP (20 mana)
Offer: 0 + 30/45/60/90 * SP, without reducing HP (80 mana)

5) Divine Vengeance: (SP + 10/20/30/40) * 1.1 / 1.2 / 1.3 / 1.4 * F (18 mana)
Offer: 0 + 60/90/120/180 * F (80 mana)
Note: Similar spells must be very expensive, so that they do not throw every turn.

General note number 1: Expert Shatter of Light should work well for the entire 5 level (because this is its target area)!
General note number 2: There are spells on each round that depend little (or not) on SP (for wagering on heroes with low SP, but high knowledge).
General Note # 3: Endurance and Righteous Might are excellent spells for the army, if there are many SPs (together convert SP to attack and defense at 1: 1 rate).
General note number 4: heroes with 10% knowledge (including the classic Might) will not be able to actively use spells 4-5 circles because of the prohibitive price.

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Fidanas
Fidanas


Adventuring Hero
posted September 23, 2017 10:05 AM

quick question

I don't want to spoil the thread, but can someone explain me, if i use the ADAPTIVE SHARPENING fix, do i still have to use the BLURRY TEXTURES fix over it?

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 23, 2017 11:49 AM

BLURRY TEXTURES is only required if you have issues with the graphics. I think both packages have nothing in common but Magno has to confirm.

@Magno I got a question from the russian forum if the combat screen changes can be reverted to original. I remember there was a file called MMH55-ATB.pak or something similar that was responsible for such things but I cant find it in RC9b. Did you merge it with other files?
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 23, 2017 12:36 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 14:06, 23 Sep 2017.

@dabuthegreat:

Phantom forces was alternative, I will not move both.

@Dredknight:

This bonus only apply to heroes not from necropolis, to make up for moral loss+bonus.

@Fidanas:

You don't need to use the blurry textures fix if you don't have the issue, if you have than you will have to test if all works fine, since I can't.

Quote:
Why is Ice Bolt 7 mana? Only in early game it is better than LB and then the damage is not very high anyway. It should cost at most 6 mana, if LB is 6.


No, until 20SP ice bolt is better, this is penalty for amateur casters who can do significantly better with this spell.

Quote:
Fireball = 1.75 (original was 1.5)


But what is the single spell cost you used?
LB TOE = 4, so you arrive at only 7 mana for a fireball???

EDIT:

Quote:
4) Teleportation (10 mana)
Offer: 40 mana


Is this for targeting enemies?, otherwise it is ridiculous

Quote:
(Mass version of the spell is 4x4)


Cannot be used in H55, because of AI

Quote:
Why: Dependence on SP is not needed here, it is analogous to Divine Strength, but dispersing damage through initiative.


You overlook has very positive effect on creatures with haste spell (inquisitor)
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 23, 2017 02:38 PM

@Dredknight:

Swapping UI will be difficult, bloodrage button is now only designed for this one.
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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 23, 2017 02:52 PM
Edited by dredknight at 14:56, 23 Sep 2017.

Alright I will tell him it is not easily possible.

P.S. I went in-game to check how it looks now and found out something weird. As you are in a battle there is an arrow in the upper left corner that allows you to hide the whole GUI. When you click it everything disappears except one of the half wheels that is responsible for spellbok-defense-wait commands. I assume this is a bug?
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dabuthegreat
dabuthegreat


Adventuring Hero
posted September 23, 2017 03:02 PM

Quote:

Phantom forces was alternative, I will not move both.

I can't read apparently. Anyway, I think Arcane Armor for Mind Control is a fair trade.

Can't wait to play the new version. Do you have an estimate date?

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Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 23, 2017 04:09 PM
Edited by Skeggy at 16:47, 23 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:

Change name of Magical Immunity to Spell Cloak and make it possible to cast on enemies AND friendlies then move it to Dark Magic tier 4 with suitable new icon (already have it) and higher cost.

This improves game in many ways:

1. Spell itself offers more tactical moves.
2. Spell was similar in purpose to cleansing in same school. (I know it is better, but tactically it adds much more to dark than to light)
3. Might heroes who only rely on Dark, have access to a 'cleansing like' spell.
4. Amount of spells between all schools is perfectly balanced again.



You could just as well make the Magical Immunity target neutral and leave it in light magic school. Light magic needs some tactical offensive spell just like that.
Dark magic already had its own cleansing-like spell, it was (and still is) vampirism. It was both defensive and offensive as well. Now dark magic will have two very strong tactical spells, while at the same time they’ll get back destructive and disruptive capabilities of frenzy.
What will have light magic to defend itself?
Perhaps you think that warrior’s luck and magic resistance are enough?
Even if you think that warrior’s luck and magic resistance are enough don’t you think that there should be some spell outside of dark school that can negate the return of old version frenzy?

EDIT: If the duration of the Magical Immunity was problematic because it made might heroes with light magic unstoppable, duration can be altered to resemble more powerful version of cleansing. Target neutral abilities could make this spell huge fun. Just like cheaper excellent anti-version of frenzy, while having new disruptive potential (just like frenzy).

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 23, 2017 05:38 PM

dredknight said:
Alright I will tell him it is not easily possible.

P.S. I went in-game to check how it looks now and found out something weird. As you are in a battle there is an arrow in the upper left corner that allows you to hide the whole GUI. When you click it everything disappears except one of the half wheels that is responsible for spellbok-defense-wait commands. I assume this is a bug?


No, it is not a bug. Well, it's kind of a technical bug in that it is not possible to hide those buttons while preserving the functionality through hotkeys.

It is still an improvement to previous version, where you had to have both wheels. I was able to hide the top wheel, while preserving the hotkey functionality. That is, even when there is no UI, you can hit the hotkeys to, open the menu, flee, or switch to autocombat.

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