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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 435 pages long: 1 50 100 150 200 250 ... 281 282 283 284 285 ... 300 350 400 435 · «PREV / NEXT»
magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 23, 2017 05:44 PM

@Skeggy: you make a good point about vampirism, I think I didn't take into account the mind immunity for the costs. However, if the cost increases to 30, it is hardly useful as a generic cleansing spell. It can also only be cast on friendlies.

magical immunity is not a tactical offensive spell and cannot solve the issue arcane armor needs to address and I'm not sure I like 4 high tier spells in Dark vs 6 in light.

The idea to make teleport work on enemies is worth investigating, it will make the spell somewhat equal to phantom forces in value, meaning the effectiveness will become very chaotic between mediocre and super awesome.
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Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 23, 2017 06:09 PM

magnomagus said:
@Skeggy: you make a good point about vampirism, I think I didn't take into account the mind immunity for the costs. However, if the cost increases to 30, it is hardly useful as a generic cleansing spell. It can also only be cast on friendlies.

magical immunity is not a tactical offensive spell and cannot solve the issue arcane armor needs to address and I'm not sure I like 4 high tier spells in Dark vs 6 in light.

The idea to make teleport work on enemies is worth investigating, it will make the spell somewhat equal to phantom forces in value, meaning the effectiveness will become very chaotic between mediocre and super awesome.



Magical immunity is tactical offensive if it can disenchant vampirism, because disenchanting vampirism placed on enemy creature greatly changes the offensive potential of the enemy.

I support placing arcane armor in light magic, I think that’s a good call.

Could you be more specific about that 6 vs 4 ratio?

Teleport working on enemies is especially bad idea, not only will it make arch demon ability useless, but will also make any kind of starting placement configuration totally meaningless, and starting placement configuration is basically bread and butter of all homm games.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted September 23, 2017 06:10 PM

Magical immunity also affecting enemies is great, it's the only spell counter to arcane armour. I prefer it in light though, due to its pufifying theme.

Teleport on enemies will probably be op. If you could instantly teleport the enemy's ranged units into the midst of your melee, it would make some fights too easy. I like that archdemons are the only unit capable of such a feat.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 23, 2017 06:26 PM

I think it depends on the cost, teleport enemy is still weaker than frenzy, at least your own melee units also get hurt a little and large units and tank units are not suitable enemies to teleport.

@Skeggy: count how many spells in each school


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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 23, 2017 06:28 PM
Edited by thGryphn at 18:49, 23 Sep 2017.

Here are my suggestions:

- Raise Dead, move from Summon to Dark as a level 1 spell. Probably lower its effectiveness, not sure.

- Regeneration, move from Light to Summon as a Level 3 2 spell.

- Firewall, move from Summon to Destruct. Without this, Destruct has one spell less, Summon has one spell more.

- Leave Magical Immunity in Light, make it neutral target, level 4.

- Celestial Shield in Light, as a level 5 spell.

- Move Teleport to level 3, this way all magic heroes with Wisdom perk can learn it.

- Increase effectiveness of Sorrow, make it a level 4 spell.

All schools have equal number of spells: 12 each.

Edit:

Dark
Level 1: Raise Dead, Weakness, Slow
Level 2: Decay, Vulnerability
Level 3: Confusion, Suffering
Level 4: CotN, Blind, Sorrow
Level 5: Vampirism, Frenzy

Destruct
Level 1: Stone Spikes, Eldrich Arrow
Level 2: LB, IB
Level 3: FB, CoW, CL (CL is really very situational, make it level 3)
Level 4: MS, Firewall (make it stronger than now)
Level 5: DF, Implosion, Armageddon

Light
Level 1: Bless, Haste
Level 2: Endurance, Cleansing
Level 3: Deflect Arrows, Righteousness, Teleport
Level 4: MI, DV, Holy Word
Level 5: Resurrection, Celestial Shield

Summoning
Level 1: Magic Fist, Land Mine
Level 2: Wasp Swarm, Arcane Crystal, Regeneration
Level 3: Earthquake, Elementals, Blade Barrier
Level 4: Phantom, Hive
Level 5: Mind Control, Phoenix



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Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 23, 2017 06:46 PM

magnomagus said:

@Skeggy: count how many spells in each school



Well, if you place arcane armor in light magic and make it level 5 spell, and you move divine vengeance to level four spell, you will have 6 level five and level four spells in totals, but only because teleportation is defined as level 4 spell, and high ranking of teleportation does not make teleportation truly level 4 spell.

Besides that, perhaps the raise dead formula needs to be rechecked now that arcane armor is no more within summoning magic?

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 23, 2017 06:49 PM

raise dead cannot move because of the perk it is attached to.

firewall in destruction is a disaster, it will simply become irrelevant and for pure summoners it is very useful.

teleport tier 3 is probably my best escape to have both arcane armor & immunity in light, but then deflect missile has to drop to level 2, since I cannot have more than 3 spells on one tier.

I prefer to have only 2 tier 5 spells per school because it gives better assurance for strong spell when making expensive upgrade.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 23, 2017 06:49 PM

Edited my post above...

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 23, 2017 06:51 PM

Quote:
Besides that, perhaps the raise dead formula needs to be rechecked now that arcane armor is no more within summoning magic?


what do you mean by that?
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 23, 2017 06:56 PM

@magno, I put the full spell account above. Summoning has a lot going for it already. Firewall isn't all that useful for a Summoning master, as he has a full arsenal of other useful spells.

In Destruction, with it made sufficiently stronger, it would be very useful along with other Fire-based perks. Destruction is lacking a more tactical spell like Firewall.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 23, 2017 07:04 PM

No summoning is all delays and complex tricks, sometimes the player just wants to keep it simple and do straight damage.

Fireball+ignite is better, firewall has nothing to offer destruction.
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Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 23, 2017 07:11 PM
Edited by Skeggy at 19:19, 23 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
Quote:
Besides that, perhaps the raise dead formula needs to be rechecked now that arcane armor is no more within summoning magic?


what do you mean by that?


Perhaps lower the base penalty for repetitive raising and make it less dependent from spellpower.

Let’s say basic level 0.25, beginner 0.20, advanced 0.15 and expert 0.10
Per power ratio would be -0.001.

I agree that firewall stays in summoning.

Edit: Per power ratio would NOT be -0.001 but -0.01

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 23, 2017 07:25 PM

@Skeggy: but why, what does this have to do with arcane armor?

@ThGryhn: also firewall cannot be empowered
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Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 23, 2017 07:43 PM

magnomagus said:
@Skeggy: but why, what does this have to do with arcane armor?



If you remove arcane armor, player who has only expert summoning won’t have reliable protection
Arcane armor provided protection both from physical and magical damage at the same time. Not that it’s gone, player who has only expert summoning will not have effective protection against physical damage (and from magical as well if shutter destruction is not present), so only way to cope with the potential damage increase is with phantom forces (for quicker destruction of enemy) and raise dead (for minimizing damage).

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 23, 2017 07:53 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 19:56, 23 Sep 2017.

I don't think this is something summoning desperately needs to do,to be a valid spellschool

Another idea: I think it is actually possible to move teleport to Dark tier 3, despite the connection with teleport assault, since the spell is almost completely mastery level neutral.

Teleport is actually a dark themed ability (vampires/devils) and H6 has another puple style icon available for it.

this will make:

Dark
Level 1: Sorrow, Weakness, Slow
Level 2: Decay, Vulnerability
Level 3: Confusion, Suffering, Teleport
Level 4: CotN, Blind
Level 5: Vampirism, Frenzy

Destruct
Level 1: Stone Spikes, Eldrich Arrow
Level 2: LB, IB
Level 3: FB, CoW,
Level 4: MS,CL
Level 5: DF, Implosion, Armageddon

Light
Level 1: Bless, Haste
Level 2: Endurance, Cleansing
Level 3: Deflect Arrows, Righteousness, Regenration
Level 4: MI, DV, Holy Word
Level 5: Resurrection, Celestial Shield

Summoning
Level 1: Magic Fist, Land Mine
Level 2: Wasp Swarm, Arcane Crystal
Level 3: Earthquake, Elementals, Blade Barrier
Level 4: Phantom, Hive, Firewall
Level 5: Mind Control, Phoenix
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dredknight
dredknight


Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted September 23, 2017 08:16 PM

I like it. Teleport at level 3 increase the chances for a range negating spell to 66% (confusion + teleport) as dark based heroes magic heroes just as light ones have hard time early game coping with PvE.
Moving Celestial Shield to Light makes Light very themed as tier 5 spells are "good" and can stack with each other.
Combination of celestial shield and resurrection make Light very good pick for late game. Not to mention hidden potential of Divine vengeance for offensive capabilities.

Cheers!
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 23, 2017 08:37 PM
Edited by thGryphn at 20:48, 23 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
I don't think this is something summoning desperately needs to do,to be a valid spellschool

Another idea: I think it is actually possible to move teleport to Dark tier 3, despite the connection with teleport assault, since the spell is almost completely mastery level neutral.

Teleport is actually a dark themed ability (vampires/devils) and H6 has another puple style icon available for it.

this will make:

Dark
Level 1: Sorrow, Weakness, Slow
Level 2: Decay, Vulnerability
Level 3: Confusion, Suffering, Teleport
Level 4: CotN, Blind
Level 5: Vampirism, Frenzy

Destruct
Level 1: Stone Spikes, Eldrich Arrow
Level 2: LB, IB
Level 3: FB, CoW,
Level 4: MS,CL
Level 5: DF, Implosion, Armageddon

Light
Level 1: Bless, Haste
Level 2: Endurance, Cleansing
Level 3: Deflect Arrows, Righteousness, Regenration
Level 4: MI, DV, Holy Word
Level 5: Resurrection, Celestial Shield

Summoning
Level 1: Magic Fist, Land Mine
Level 2: Wasp Swarm, Arcane Crystal
Level 3: Earthquake, Elementals, Blade Barrier
Level 4: Phantom, Hive, Firewall
Level 5: Mind Control, Phoenix


You left out Raise Dead. Summoning has 13 spells, Destructive has 11 spells.

I still don't see why you insist on keeping Firewall at Summoning. I think it dilutes Summoning school. Not that it's so crucial for it but for instant direct damage it has Magic Fist or Wasp Swarm.

Firewall just makes more sense with Destructive. It's different from any other spell it has, and it fits thematically.

You can define Empowered Firewall in place of Empowered Magic Fist. No?

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 23, 2017 08:46 PM

I can live with that
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Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 23, 2017 08:55 PM
Edited by Skeggy at 21:04, 23 Sep 2017.

magnomagus said:
I don't think this is something summoning desperately needs to do,to be a valid spellschool

Another idea: I think it is actually possible to move teleport to Dark tier 3, despite the connection with teleport assault, since the spell is almost completely mastery level neutral.

Teleport is actually a dark themed ability (vampires/devils) and H6 has another puple style icon available for it.



Well, it’s not about whether will summoning magic be valid or not if raise dead spell changes or not, it’s about classes that don’t have access to light magic. Besides vampirism and raise dead I don’t see any other direct way of lowering casualties and prolonging the combat time. Yes, they will have puppet now, but, still, puppet is indirect way of lowering the casualties, while light magic has regeneration, resurrection and now, arcane armor.

So, will magical immunity be target friendly and how long will magical immunity last?
I suppose it would be overpowered if magical immunity lasts more than cleansing on hostile targets?

Also, how will ability to teleport over the town walls fall into the new placement of the teleport because only experts in light magic can teleport over the town walls?

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted September 23, 2017 09:05 PM

This might surprise you, but firewall to summoning was one of the first mods I ever made for TOE, it annoyed the #$%^ out of me Nival moved it to destructive. So you will have a hard time talking me out of this one.

If it is not good enough I will boost it, also I have also already used it to improve the pyromancy perk.
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