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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 04:21 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 16:27, 26 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
I'm actually thinking about raising 0.1 to 0.15 for mass spells and setting sorcery back to 0.3.
It's better to do spells stronger than raising tempo of mass spells. Espesially do normal Spellpower ratio instead of very small bonus +15% per SP. For the hero playing many mass casts, Spellpower must convert to At/Df at ratio of 1:1 summary, or nearly.
Try 30-50% per Spellpower (but without boosting Haste/Slow).
Quote:
I'm also thinking generic hero initiative should not be 10 but 10.5, since average creature initiative is mostly between 10.5 and 11.5.
It's better to do spells stronger. Ini other than 10 is very uncomfortable because of spells duration in rounds.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 26, 2017 04:39 PM |
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Quote:
It's better to do spells stronger than raising tempo of mass spells.
Why?,
combat is very fast, more weaker spell casting allows for more play-counterplay to happen, more variation and better opportunities for magic heroes to use their superiority in knowledge.
Quote:
It's better to do spells stronger. Ini other than 10 is very uncomfortable because of spells duration in rounds.
Why?,
spell duration is very chaotic anyway because turns are increased by 1 + 0.1 per Spellpower mostly.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 05:02 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 17:17, 26 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
Why?,
spell duration is very chaotic anyway because turns are increased by 1 + 0.1 per Spellpower mostly.
Because you know that you hero will turn to 1.0 / 0.9 / 0.8 / 0.7 after his cast.
I.e. you have SP = 10 and duration of 3.0 so see clearly that this is enough to casting that spell every 3 turns.
But if you have very uncomfortable ini 10.5 or 11, you must sit and calculate how much your spellpower to have for casting every 3 turns without pauses.
In your game there are very weak spells at big troops, so it's better to make them stronger (for example you even can't kill 50% of enemy tier-7 with the one cast of implosion). And the same about mass buffs/debuffs because of half tempo (0.0 ATB) and decreasing At/Df from 5% to 3.33%.
Quote:
better opportunities for magic heroes to use their superiority in knowledge.
If you wish to use knowledge you must do much more expensive and powerful spells (as I proposed). +5% ini do nothing about knowledge (small percents).
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 26, 2017 05:20 PM |
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Quote:
you have SP = 10 and duration of 3.0 so see clearly that this is enough to casting that spell every 3 turns.
This is not a relevant thought, mostly you have a reading like 2.4 or 2.7. There are so many ATB modifiers everything gets messed up anyway. I'm hardly ever aware which turn I'm in. This is also not relevant you just look at the ATB bar.
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In your game there are very weak spells at big troops, so it's better to make them stronger.
lvl 1-30 balance takes priority over lvl 30+ balance and you use this as a philosophy for short games.
This is bad gameplay in any type of game.
For example in your philosophy:
magic hero casts mass righteous might +20A, might hero counter with mass suffering -10A (= -30A). Now magic hero needs to wait very long and mistake will probably already cost him the battle.
Now in my philosophy:
magic hero casts mass righteous might +12A, might hero counter with mass suffering -6A (= -18A). Now magic hero needs to wait shorter and has decent chance to recover from mistake.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 05:25 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 17:36, 26 Sep 2017.
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I say that changing hero initiative is the most expensive and most bad idea from all, from the point of view of perception.
You may collect other opinions, but my personal opinion is that only one this change may force to abandon the game.
If you want to change hero initiative, at least do the same with spells initiative (so saving comfortable ratio 1 round = 1 turn of hero).
So 5% is nothing except uncomfortable. Do 11 or 12 ini that influence of this change was greater than uncomfortable.
Quote:
For example in your philosophy:
magic hero casts mass righteous might +20A, might hero counter with mass suffering -10A (= -30A). Now magic hero needs to wait very long and mistake will probably already cost him the battle.
Now in my philosophy:
magic hero casts mass righteous might +12A, might hero counter with mass suffering -6A (= -18A). Now magic hero needs to wait shorter and has decent chance to recover from mistake.
Bad example, because good player will not playing righteous might with magic hero if there is possible to opponent have suffering and that opponent turn is after, espesially if that hero has greater stats of attack/defense (as Might) or greater army.
In both your cases Magic hero is lost already.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 26, 2017 05:35 PM |
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Quote:
Bad example, because good player will not playing righteous might with magic hero if there is possible to opponent have suffering and that opponent turn is after, espesially if that hero has greater stats of attack/defense (as Might) or greater army. In both your cases Magic hero is lost already.
No it is not, because this is not the essential part of my argument.
Quote:
I say that changing hero initiative is the most expensive and most bad idea from all, from the point of view of perception.
You may collect other opinions, but my personal opinion is that only one this change may force to abandon the game.
If you want to change hero initiative, at least do the same with spells initiative (so saving comfortable ratio 1 round = 1 turn of hero).
So 5% is nothing except uncomfortable. Do 11 or 12 ini that influence of this change was greater than uncomfortable.
This is purely theoretical, hero initiative is not clearly stated in the game. Most players don't even know it is 10, also on heroes with windspeaker it constantly changes and nobody ever cared or was bothered by this.
EDIT: Furthermore players never have a clear read on initiative because it is always rounded up or down in the UI while the game uses numbers with decimal places.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 05:45 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 17:55, 26 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
This is purely theoretical, hero initiative is not clearly stated in the game. Most players don't even know it is 10, also on heroes with windspeaker it constantly changes and nobody ever cared or was bothered by this.
This is only your opinion. I'm such player who likes combat and gives importance to the smallest details in battle, and for me this is very bad. Collect other opinions.
Even morale of 40% instead 50% is bad because uncomfortable but there are at least some significant excuses (but 67% luck is much stronger than 50% morale and than 40% of cause).
Quote:
EDIT: Furthermore players never have a clear read on initiative because it is always rounded up or down in the UI while the game uses numbers with decimal places.
And that players will say "thank you very much" when surprisely critical buff duration will ends not that time they counted looking at "10 ini" of the hero.
You propose to get 1 cm = 10.5 mm metric system and try to explain that furthermore players never have a clear read and don't calculate the battle to the nearest mm.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 26, 2017 05:53 PM |
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 05:54 PM |
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Edited by thGryphn at 17:56, 26 Sep 2017.
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@Nargott
Here is the thing with spell duration in Heroes 5: it is calculated (and applied) with respect to the turns of the creature, not the casting hero. So, your thinking with respect to hero initiative is just not valid. There is no "combat turn" dynamics in Heroes 5, just the ATB bar. So, a "turn" is a relative concept that changes from creature to creature (or hero).
I'm surprised you don't know this, or overlooked it in your argument above.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 05:56 PM |
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magnomagus said:
No it is not.
Why? Do you testing this?
I have many tests confirming that 50% luck is equal or greater than 50% morale.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 05:59 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 18:00, 26 Sep 2017.
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thGryphn said:
@Nargott
Here is the thing with spell duration in Heroes 5: it is calculated (and applied) with respect to the turns of the creature, not the casting hero. So, your thinking with respect to hero initiative is just not valid. There is no "combat turn" dynamics in Heroes 5, just the ATB bar. So, a "turn" is a relative concept that changes from creature to creature (or hero).
I'm surprised you don't know this, or overlooked it in your argument above.
Spell's duration is in rounds and each 1 round is equal to turn of creature (or hero) with 10 ini. Check it if you doubt.
Except such effects like berserk which are counted not rounds but turns of target unit.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 26, 2017 05:59 PM |
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To be fair to Nargott, I wasn't aware of that either,
but if true then this part of the discussion was just total nonsense.
Quote:
Why? Do you testing this?
I have many tests confirming that 50% luck is equal or greater than 50% morale.
I have many calculations confirming the opposite
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 06:00 PM |
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Nargott said:
Because you know that you hero will turn to 1.0 / 0.9 / 0.8 / 0.7 after his cast.
I.e. you have SP = 10 and duration of 3.0 so see clearly that this is enough to casting that spell every 3 turns.
But if you have very uncomfortable ini 10.5 or 11, you must sit and calculate how much your spellpower to have for casting every 3 turns without pauses.
Just in case you missed my post above, this argument (of measuring spell duration with respect to hero turns) is not valid. It just doesn't work like that in the first place...
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 06:02 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 18:05, 26 Sep 2017.
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thGryphn said:
Just in case you missed my post above, this argument (of measuring spell duration with respect to hero turns) is not valid. It just doesn't work like that in the first place...
Does work very well. Check it.
Of cause if there is sorcery make hero turn = 0.7 rounds, that round will not be equal to real turn of hero but easy to calculate (0.7 / 1.4 / 2.1 etc.)
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 06:02 PM |
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Nargott said:
Spell's duration is in rounds and each 1 round is equal to turn of creature (or hero) with 10 ini. Check it if you doubt.
I'd be very surprised if that's the case, but where do we check?
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 06:09 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 18:27, 26 Sep 2017.
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thGryphn said:
I'd be very surprised if that's the case, but where do we check?
We?
I have already check it many years back when studied questions about hero ini, spells ini and durations.
So, I recommend you to check it by yourself in duel mode. For example, when you cast mass buff it will be ends simultaneously to all creatures at that moment when "rounds" (virtual turns of 10 ini starting when buff is start) are end.
Only berserk and poison have mechanics not in rounds but in turns of that creature (maybe some other special cases, but certainly not buffs / debuffs).
If you write this, so I'm not surprise if many players even don't notice the change in the initiative of the hero. But I believe that if the author changes any value, then he should study all the consequences well.
magnomagus said:
I have many calculations confirming the opposite
Calculations is nothing if they based on incorrect math model not relevant to the experimental data. So I recommend you to check it practically, do the same heroes with same armies, one army with +0 morale and + 5 luck, and other with +5 morale and +0 luck.
So calculations show that +5 of 40% morale do 10/(10-0.4*5) = 10/8 = +25% initiative boost excluding the first move.
And +5 of 67% luck is +33% damage boost including the first move.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 26, 2017 06:25 PM |
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Ok I see it clearly now, hero initiative and spell initiative are separate values in the defaultstats. But this means it doesn't matter what hero initiative is as long as spell initiative is the same because then 1 hero turn would always be equal to 1 spell turn.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 06:30 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 18:32, 26 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
Ok I see it clearly now, hero initiative and spell initiative are separate values in the defaultstats. But this means it doesn't matter what hero initiative is as long as spell initiative is the same because then 1 hero turn would always be equal to 1 spell turn.
Yes yes, so I wrote than you must to do the same values if want to change. This will significantly reduce the discomfort of changing the initiative of the hero (relatively to the rounds), but not to zero point (because comparing of rounds relatively creature turns will be less comfortable than 10 ini round)
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted September 26, 2017 06:45 PM |
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Ok I can see the validity of comparing with creatures, in that case I have to live with slightly slower heroes.
Quote:
So calculations show that +5 of 40% morale do 10/(10-0.4*5) = 10/8 = +25% initiative boost excluding the first move.
And +5 of 67% luck is +33% damage boost including the first move.
I had roughly the same calculations, but 3 luck and 5 morale are equally difficult to achieve. I could make morale stronger, but overall this makes armies faster than I like, probably resulting in lowering expert haste spell to 20% base.
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Nargott
Known Hero
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posted September 26, 2017 06:55 PM |
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Edited by Nargott at 18:59, 26 Sep 2017.
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magnomagus said:
I had roughly the same calculations, but 3 luck and 5 morale are equally difficult to achieve. I could make morale stronger, but overall this makes armies faster than I like, probably resulting in lowering expert haste spell to 20% base.
I had proposed you to do expert haste 25% constantly. Because bless is constant. These are spells of the 1st level and don't need to be forced by spellpower (but force dependence for Endurance and Righteous Might).
You may test lesser values Luck/Morale, and it will only be in the best of luck but harder to notice because of the smaller difference, so +5 for extremal values are more comfortable (and more beneficial for morale).
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