|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
posted October 04, 2017 04:36 PM |
|
|
I want to remove wasp swarm from sprites and instead improve their stats. This spell is completely pointless (2*SP) except for annoying the player in very early game. I basically tried to fix this with negative base value (which spawned the idea in the first place), but doesn't help enough.
It has no ATB reduction right now, but if I add it, it will become overpowered against neutrals since the player will just always push the target behind the shooters at begin of battle.
Instead I want the wasp swarm to have some ATB reduction and better damage for heroes who cast it at level none.
To make up for combat base skill weakness I want to improve martial arts to give 70% for double damage.
I have done some research in excel and found out that on average across all tiers the heroes melee damage with 70% martial arts is roughly equal in value to a damage spell with formula 20 + 16 * SP. (If you count spellpower as levels). Without martial arts it is more like (10 + 12 * SP). After this change I should keep lightning at 0 base value + 24*SP, otherwise it stays below the hero damage too long.
I also want ice bolt to be more different from lightning and boost to 30*SP with higher cost so there will be damage spells at many cost levels 6,9,12,18 etc and 24 for implosion and 32 for deep freeze which will do more damage than implosion (but no luck on it, so it is basically 'pre-lucked')
Lower chain lightning to level 3 and move frost ring to level 4 (also 30*SP)
Also magic fist will get same formula as lightning and lift to level 2 and wasp swarm lower to level 1, Firewall will be 'pre-empowered' with 50% more damage and higher cost.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
|
|
Fidanas
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted October 04, 2017 06:07 PM |
|
|
All sounds great in my opinion. Definatelly combat orientated heroes should have some boost against powerful mages.
NO, ATB in sprites spell would be a disaster (somehow i remember that terible "song of peace" some Genies cast).
____________
Just another turn and i'm done...
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted October 04, 2017 06:22 PM |
|
|
Quote:
NO, ATB in sprites spell would be a disaster (somehow i remember that terible "song of peace" some Genies cast).
I don't know if you are saying here you agree with me or misread something.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
|
|
Fidanas
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted October 04, 2017 06:52 PM |
|
|
Absolutelly agree :-)
____________
Just another turn and i'm done...
|
|
Nargott
Known Hero
|
|
posted October 04, 2017 07:08 PM |
|
Edited by Nargott at 19:28, 04 Oct 2017.
|
magnomagus said:
To make up for combat base skill weakness I want to improve martial arts to give 70% for double damage.
If you want to force this perk, better to do 100% for double damage.
From the point of view of perception, 70% chance for double = double damage with 30% chance for unlucky 50% hit. Because the most likely event (with 70% chance) becomes the main event and it is not very pleasant to have unsuccessful exceptions.
EDIT:
But Combat skill (as skill) will not stronger this way. There will be stronger set of (skill+perks), but earlier you had wrote that this set doesn't need buff (and I never disputed this set, only skill). You know that I look not to total sum but to concrete components.
Don't understand why 10% ATB for none-skill wasp swarm (if you do this) is imba and need to remove. It is limited by 2 uses per stack only and you can do 1 using if make mana cost more expensive or their mana cap lesser (and remove Cleansing).
In Heroes 4 genies have "100% ATB" song of peace, so this is bad example.
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted October 04, 2017 08:11 PM |
|
|
Quote:
If you want to force this perk, better to do 100% for double damage.
From the point of view of perception, 70% chance for double = double damage with 30% chance for unlucky 50% hit. Because the most likely event (with 70% chance) becomes the main event and it is not very pleasant to have unsuccessful exceptions.
I agree but the UI doesn't understand and will give incorrect damage prediction, so in order for it not to look buggy it needs to be based on chance.
Quote:
EDIT:
But Combat skill (as skill) will not stronger this way. There will be stronger set of (skill+perks), but earlier you had wrote that this set doesn't need buff (and I never disputed this set, only skill). You know that I look not to total sum but to concrete components.
I look to total sum and total sum is weaker than I initially thought.
Quote:
Don't understand why 10% ATB for none-skill wasp swarm (if you do this) is imba and need to remove. It is limited by 2 uses per stack only and you can do 1 using if make mana cost more expensive or their mana cap lesser (and remove Cleansing).
In Heroes 4 genies have "100% ATB" song of peace, so this is bad example.
I think you misunderstand me, I want wasp swarm to do 0.2,0.3,0.4,0.5 ATB and because of that I will remove it from sprites.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
|
|
thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted October 04, 2017 08:53 PM |
|
|
I really like all the last batch of changes! 
@magno, I remember the answer to be "no" but are there any unused perks? I have an idea but I need to see the complete picture...
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted October 04, 2017 09:16 PM |
|
|
|
Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted October 04, 2017 10:19 PM |
|
|
-suppress light (enemy hero is forced to spend twice more mana to cast light magic spells in combat)
-seal of darkness (enemy hero is forced to spend twice more mana to cast dark magic spells in combat)
-luck of the barbarian (the hero’s army gets +5% magic proof for every point of luck)
Concerning wasp swarm, it would be nice that at least one caster of every faction has that spell on basic level with basic value of 0.1 ATB disruption. Idea needs some testing, but I think tactical gameplay would be more interesting.
|
|
Nargott
Known Hero
|
|
posted October 04, 2017 10:20 PM |
|
|
magnomagus said:
I agree but the UI doesn't understand and will give incorrect damage prediction, so in order for it not to look buggy it needs to be based on chance.
Yes, it is. Choose the lesser evil.
Quote:
I think you misunderstand me, I want wasp swarm to do 0.2,0.3,0.4,0.5 ATB and because of that I will remove it from sprites.
Do swarm weaker? This is strange. I think about 0.1/0.3/0.5/0.7 ATB. If you want to use your 50/65/80/100% formula, you may do the same damage (i.e. damage is const (relative to skill), ATB varies). Plus take into account that swarm doesn't throws below zero, so 0.7 ATB is practically lesser.
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted October 04, 2017 10:24 PM |
|
|
Quote:
No, only seal of dark is not used, mummies have wasp swarm basic
Yes, it is. Choose the lesser evil.
It is the lesser evil, people are going to report this as a bug.
Quote:
Do swarm weaker? This is strange. I think about 0.1/0.3/0.5/0.7 ATB. If you want to use your 50/65/80/100% formula, you may do the same damage (i.e. damage is const (relative to skill), ATB varies). Plus take into account that swarm doesn't throws below zero, so 0.7 ATB is practically lesser.
No damage will be significantly better, up to 16*SP, I think 0.5 is strong enough and I like some room left for wasp swarm specialization.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
|
|
dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
|
|
posted October 04, 2017 10:52 PM |
|
|
Just read the last few pages and everything looks awesome ! 
Good job!
magnomagus said:
No damage will be significantly better, up to 16*SP, I think 0.5 is strong enough and I like some room left for wasp swarm specialization.
One note here - a viable strategy (potentially OP) in the RC9b current setup is specialization wasp swarm + MOTW + Summon Hive + Sorcery where you can disable completely 3 enemy creatures due to heavy spell spam and high ATB boost. I think I have one or two old replays archived somewhere in case you need them.
Cheers
____________
Join our official discord channel | NCF Utility Beta
|
|
Nargott
Known Hero
|
|
posted October 04, 2017 11:03 PM |
|
Edited by Nargott at 23:10, 04 Oct 2017.
|
magnomagus said:
It is the lesser evil, people are going to report this as a bug.
In WGE I had added description for this double damage, so formally it became no bug but described feature.
Like double shot which is used instead of "elvish double shot" in that mod (the damage is predicted to be single, but it does not cause any serious inconvenience, if you know this).
So you may describe it as not 200% damage but "double strike" (players know that double strike is predicted to single damage).
There are many bugs in Heroes 5 battle mechanics, so adding detailed description (not bug but described feature) is my way to work with these bugs.
magnomagus said:
No damage will be significantly better, up to 16*SP, I think 0.5 is strong enough and I like some room left for wasp swarm specialization.
In HRTA wasp swarm specialization boost only damage (and more seriously), not ATB. I think this is the best way to balancing this specialization.
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted October 04, 2017 11:14 PM |
|
|
@dredknight: ? I tried that in duel mode against stronghold AI and got slaughtered.
@Nargott: I don't see why you would want a low level spell like wasp swarm to disable a creature almost an entire turn, there are much higher level spells supposed to be used for that goal.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
|
|
Nargott
Known Hero
|
|
posted October 04, 2017 11:20 PM |
|
|
magnomagus said:
@Nargott: I don't see why you would want a low level spell like wasp swarm to disable a creature almost an entire turn, there are much higher level spells supposed to be used for that goal.
Because dislike weak spells. You may do damage lower (up to zero if you want) but with strong ATB.
|
|
thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted October 04, 2017 11:27 PM |
|
|
Yeah, Summon Hive + Sorcery works like a charm 
OK, I have an idea on a little perk shuffling.
The motivation came from the Preparation perk in Combat, where I really think it's misplaced. I would like to see all Combat perks to be about the Might hero him/herself. Preparation is a tactical perk, so really a sore thumb there.
What really fits there in Combat is the Empathy perk, moving the hero himself along the ATB bar.
So, here is the shuffling I propose:
1) Preparation replace Power of Endurance in Defense
2) Empathy take Preparation's old position
3) Prayer take Empathy's old position (just a repositioning in Leadership, maybe make Prayer stronger?)
4) Last Stand take Prayer's old position (another repositioning in Leadership)
5) Power of Endurance take Last Stand's old position
Final situation after changes...
Combat:
Martial Arts --> Retaliation Strike --> Empathy
Defense:
Vitality --> Stand Your Ground --> Preparation
Leadership:
Diplomacy --> Prayer (very leader-like)
Last Stand --> Power of Endurance (a rather defensive path)
What do you think?
|
|
Nargott
Known Hero
|
|
posted October 04, 2017 11:38 PM |
|
Edited by Nargott at 00:05, 05 Oct 2017.
|
@thGryphn:
Preparation is perk about retaliation strike and about "stand your ground defense" also. But preparation formally doesn't decrease damage as defense, so the better place is Combat, in my opinion.
I even had moved this perk from Defense to human racial skill in WGE, like in MMH5.5, because this perk is linked with enforced retaliation (and has synergy with it).
Your shuffle is interesting, but have serious weak point - specialization of Godric which require Prayer as basic perk.
EDIT:
Oh, in your game Godric has another specialization, but what about his natural specialization, it was removed?
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted October 04, 2017 11:48 PM |
|
|
yes same apllies to leadership & empathy, if you swap the skills leadership & combat suddenly become dependant on each other.
also
prayer + last stand = both religious devotion
diplomacy + empathy = both tolerant to others perspective
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
|
|
thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted October 05, 2017 12:35 AM |
|
Edited by thGryphn at 00:36, 05 Oct 2017.
|
magnomagus said:
yes same apllies to leadership & empathy, if you swap the skills leadership & combat suddenly become dependant on each other.
Not that they become dependent on each other, it's just that Empathy perk would benefit from Leadership. There are other examples of that already, like Retribution getting better with Leadership, Flaming Arrows getting better with War Machines, Swarming Gate getting better with Luck, Caster's Luck and Empowered Spells getting better with Destructive Magic, etc.
Again, we're talking about a single perk being boosted by another secondary skill. Plus, in Empathy's case, Leadership is not a must. Artifacts boost morale just fine and many times I skip Leadership just because of that...
magnomagus said:
prayer + last stand = both religious devotion
diplomacy + empathy = both tolerant to others perspective
I didn't mean there is no good match now. I meant that there is good match after the changes as well...
|
|
thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted October 05, 2017 12:44 AM |
|
|
Nargott said:
@thGryphn:
Preparation is perk about retaliation strike and about "stand your ground defense" also. But preparation formally doesn't decrease damage as defense, so the better place is Combat, in my opinion.
I even had moved this perk from Defense to human racial skill in WGE, like in MMH5.5, because this perk is linked with enforced retaliation (and has synergy with it).
Your shuffle is interesting, but have serious weak point - specialization of Godric which require Prayer as basic perk.
EDIT:
Oh, in your game Godric has another specialization, but what about his natural specialization, it was removed?
Preparation is about calling the "Defend" command and they form a great synergy with Stand Your Ground, which triggers with the Defend command as well. Both of them are about Defend command, and hence best suited in the Defence skill tree.
All other perks in Combat skill is about the hero but Preparation is about the creatures. Sore thumb analogy works here if it ever does.
Empathy is about the hero, so this was my effort in making Combat more coherent and in fact better. Empathy would synergize perfectly with other Combat perks.
|
|
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
