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Alvis
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 01, 2015 01:10 PM |
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Edited by Alvis at 13:13, 01 Jul 2015.
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Hello. I'm having this problem [url=http://prntscr.com/7n4hq3]http://prntscr.com/7n4hq3[/url] and even though I tried to read all the manuals and search through forum I couldn't find any answers. Could someone please tell how to play new 5.5 RMG maps with friends through LAN (we are using Hamachi)?
Also I would like to know where could I find all the vanilla and 5.5 maps, since (install folder)/Tribes of the East/Maps is empty. I would like to be able to try and edit some of those included. Also, If I would change starting castles in 5.5 maps which are already set in all the maps I've tried (I would like to be able to choose which ever castle I would like to start with). I'm new to modding maps so any tips and fixes I would have to apply after changing the castles from set to random (chosen by the player) would be appreciated.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted July 01, 2015 01:28 PM |
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Hello Alvis, I recommend to generate new maps with the same templates as were used with the maps you liked. Because I don't know why this issue occurs with some of the demo maps. Newly generated maps will be in h5m format and ready to edit. Read the Advanced RMG manual (shortcut startmenu) and also do not forget to remove index.bin and activate scripts after using the RMG if you want to use the map in LAN (see first post of this thread).
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted July 02, 2015 10:50 AM |
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Here is a new link of the fight.
FortressVSsylvan3
Here is what we did.
Fortress restat 6 points of logistics in favour for expert enlightment and advanced sorcery.
Sylvan restatated logistics for Expert Light and Expert combat (+ preparation).
Sylvan won the battle as a boss because of the light magic.
You can see how his dragons and unicorns have a turn twice in a row if they get moral (they have 22-23 initiative).
I will post screenshots of the whole hero set in a few minutes.
This is fortress hero restated - when he lost.
The battles when he won he didnt have enlightment and sorcery at all.
But had Logistics expert + logistic perks.
So what happened is that even now when he is stronger he lost.
This is due to the restat heaven did which I am going to eleborate below.
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Alvis
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 02, 2015 11:24 AM |
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Thank you mag, everything is working now. We were also playing with PEST mod for about 8 hours or so 3 people together. We didn't really tried to break the game, but what we tried is to enter the same dragon utopia 2 players at the same time. Everything went well. No crashes or anything during the 8 hour session although as I said we didn't really tried to break it... yet. We'll be playing with the mod every time so more feedback is to follow. We aren't using any other mods.
What I wanted to ask, is it possible to enable 8 player skills during multiplayer? I can do it playing single player custom maps, but there are no checkboxes in LAN. I guess this is only concerning 3.1 and older maps since I can now put that checkbox when generating using ARMG generator.
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lotihoti
Famous Hero
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posted July 02, 2015 11:31 AM |
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It is possible:
1. All players need to create a single player map with enabled 8 skill option (just create - dont start)
2. Go back to Multiplayer. One of you creates the game.
3. Start the multiplayer game
4. 8 Skills work
Bit weird but its working ^^
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted July 02, 2015 12:46 PM |
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@Alvis: that is good to hear, but what would you do if you would try to break it?
The hotseat menu is closest to LAN menu so it is easiest to activate 8 skills from there
@dredknight: this looks good to me, so absolute protection+runes can be overcome, I don't think the initiative was unfair since the dwarves can also act twice with runes. Preparation was probably more decisive. Also it was not a huge victory only 37 treants with 148 defense stayed on the battlefield. Maybe if the magma dragons were not trapped so long the battle would have gone differently.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted July 02, 2015 01:16 PM |
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no, there was also 100 unicorns which I killed with vengance just to show its strength.
Sylvan had - 4 dragons, around 100 unicorns and the treants.
What I want to say is that HASTE/SLOW are still too decisive.
The previous battles (which fortress won) sylvan had basic light + mass haste. the one that Sylvan won -> Expert haste + preparation.
And preparation did not do much if you see the battle. The only times preparation did some damage was against the dragons (I wanted to test the dual hit rune against preparation and the tree retaliated 3 times!!!) and the battle was already over.
Have in mind that his spellpower is two times lower then mine ( I had 34 and he had around 10-12).
Fortress haste was was 49% and still he had much higher initiative.
now imagine what sylvan hero which is more SP oriented will do with that much haste...
The only fix I know is to make haste/slow give flat bonuses so this way it will be fair for everyone and all creatures will benefit from this.
Unfortunately this is hardcoded...
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lotihoti
Famous Hero
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posted July 02, 2015 01:31 PM |
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Isnt hard coded.
You can set haste on 10% on none, 12,5% base, 15% advanced and 17,5% expert (just examples) with no increasement with spellpower.
Spellpower could increase only the duration.
At leaset i made such low power benefits:
base = 5% + 0,1%/spellpower
advanced = 7,5% + 0,1%/spellpower
expert = 10% + 0,1%/spellpower.
Haste:
A hero with 40 spellpower and expert light gets +14% + 6 turns.
A hero with 10 spellpower and Basic light gets +6% + 2,25 turns.
Same goes for slow. Some other values for def+-, att+- etc.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted July 02, 2015 01:38 PM |
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lotihoti said:
base = 5% + 0,1%/spellpower
advanced = 7,5% + 0,1%/spellpower
expert = 10% + 0,1%/spellpower.
I like your values. Though 0.1 factor is far too small.
I say 0.2 will be better  .
This do not removes the meaning of % increase but at least diminish the power of the spell itself.
@magno, note that initiative above 20 greatly diminish hero abilities that deal damage (destruction, summoning mostly) as his cast rate is greatly reduced.
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Alvis
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 02, 2015 02:05 PM |
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Edited by Alvis at 14:11, 02 Jul 2015.
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Thanks for the replies. I'd probably start with trying to attack someone already in a fight (PvE and PvP).
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted July 02, 2015 02:43 PM |
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@loti, dredknight:
You are highly exaggerating and not focusing on the real issue. If you play with inferno you will see that initiative means nothing if you don't have the strength, lowering the spells below the artifacts also doesn't make any sense.
First of all if vengeance is nerfed it will still do 40-50% damage and then tolghar is permitted to use it as he pleases. Emerald dragons are supposed to be around the strongest creatures in the game and sylvan played better so he had an economic advantage with them. Basically he should have turtled with town gate with its extra town forcing you to a siege or otherwise be completely overwhelmed later by its economy.
@Alvis
understand, but I don't take responsibility for what happens when using the pest patch
Quote:
@magno, note that initiative above 20 greatly diminish hero abilities that deal damage (destruction, summoning mostly) as his cast rate is greatly reduced.
This is true, I recently calculated avg creature ini is 10.6 so I think hero ini should be set to exactly that or possibly 11.
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lotihoti
Famous Hero
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posted July 02, 2015 02:57 PM |
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I only share my values (calculated them through and tested them).
But they dont work with mmh5.5 cause my game has a completly different balance then your games and im fine with that.
I just wanted to show that we all are in need to find a good balance.
Im here to test objects, scripts etc. but not for creating a balance, cause i think mine is fine.
The easiest way to test is: Create a map. Give 2 heroes a strong build and the same amount of creatures of a different faction (calculated with weekly growth etc.) and let them fight. Then check who is going to win everytime.
It is possible to get a good balance - but the game should depend on skill of the player too... Right now the total game can turn into a mess if you make a wrong decision: cast the wrong spell in the wrong time and your army gets blown...
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted July 02, 2015 03:12 PM |
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Quote:
The easiest way to test is: Create a map. Give 2 heroes a strong build and the same amount of creatures of a different faction (calculated with weekly growth etc.) and let them fight. Then check who is going to win everytime.
This can only help testing naked statistics, not all those special abilities, spells and stuff that reduces losses during creeping.
Quote:
Right now the total game can turn into a mess if you make a wrong decision: cast the wrong spell in the wrong time and your army gets blown...
This is true, the pace of the game is too high (already since Heroes 3)
because of the damage formula (1+0.05*A-D). Nival tried to fix this wrongly by making the offense secondary skill very weak (equal to +3 attack for 3 slots). The Attack primary skill is overpowered and overshadowing all other systems in the game. I think it is better if in next version I start with a reduction to (1+0.04*A-D), in that scenario 3 slots offense is closer to +6 attack.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted July 02, 2015 04:53 PM |
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magnomagus said:
@loti, dredknight:
You are highly exaggerating and not focusing on the real issue. If you play with inferno you will see that initiative means nothing if you don't have the strength, lowering the spells below the artifacts also doesn't make any sense.
@magno, i thought for a while. And yes I agree. I just take it personal xD which should not be the case. Here is what happened since early game.
WEEK 1: I go none of the dwellings.
Sylvan got his archer dwelling on week 1. it was not defended.
WEEK 2: I got the harpoon dwelling
Late that week I got the dwarven dwelling. I didnt see it because of that bright snow. The bear dwelling was very heavy defended by Vampries, ghosts, zombiez and skeletons so I coudlnt afford to get it. That crippled me a lot.
Hero development: as I was going straight for ultimate protection I was forced to pick shatter dark at early levels. I didnt have resources to build magic guild till level 4 so i did not get the elemental dwellings in my castle. I did not have any good magic school as i did not have resources to build guilds.
I think Ultimate protection is good as it is now.
This also reminded me that magic guild requirement for dwellings should be reduced to lvl 3. lvl 4 is just too high for early game. Only academy has point to fast build magic guilds early on. Other faction count on units.
magnomagus said:
First of all if vengeance is nerfed it will still do 40-50% damage and then tolghar is permitted to use it as he pleases. Emerald dragons are supposed to be around the strongest creatures in the game and sylvan played better so he had an economic advantage with them. Basically he should have turtled with town gate with its extra town forcing you to a siege or otherwise be completely overwhelmed later by its economy.
My opponent dont like to play PvP except the big battles. So basically we develop and when we meet we get all we can till that week if economy allows it and we fight. I really like to play dirty but he wont play at all if I force him  .
magnomagus said:
Quote:
@magno, note that initiative above 20 greatly diminish hero abilities that deal damage (destruction, summoning mostly) as his cast rate is greatly reduced.
This is true, I recently calculated avg creature ini is 10.6 so I think hero ini should be set to exactly that or possibly 11.
still creature initiative should not pass 20, I eam still a supporter to the idea to cut down all artifacts to half their init values ).
But whatever you decide.
Also dont forget that prayer adds further 10%.
So basically with Runemage I can have easily 50% haste + 10% prayer + artifacts, if I focus on that.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted July 02, 2015 05:36 PM |
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@dredknight:
Ok clear, but i don't understand 50% haste with 34 spellpower, 34 spellpower should be 42%. I'm inclined to move back to 24%/+0.4% however.
prayer costs a whole turn and the morale is mostly pointless if it is already at 5, so if you want to spend a whole turn for +10% be my guest, I would cast mass righteous might instead.
If hero ini is ~11 then it will be ~14 after sorcery or ~13 with empathy. If you consider the hero a strong creature that should be enough for late game.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted July 02, 2015 05:50 PM |
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I dont want hero to be faster, I just want the creatures not be boosted over 30% of their default at most.
Imagine a game where one of the two players did not get haste/slow while the other player did?
Also imagine a game where one of the players did not have luck with the pieces of the dragon set?
The player who played with Sylvan told me that his archers acted two times before the PvE creatures could move, and that is a game breaker when it comes to fighting 50+ dragons with breath attack that can reach you in 1 turn.
I dont mind initiative boosting-reducing spells/artifacts being strong.
But we only consider those spells/artis in PvP and not in PvE.
So what I mean is that even severely reducing haste/slow/artifacts Sylvan will still be significantly faster in PvP than fortress.
It does not matter if Sylvan boost is reduced from 30 to 15% and fortress from 42 to 21%, the ratio is still the same in game.
What I mean is that their PvE domination will be reduced. Against PvE
20% boost vs null is less than 40% boost vs null.
Same goes for a player vs player where only one of the them has haste/slow.
I hope you get what I mean .
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted July 02, 2015 06:54 PM |
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I agree that the question whether sylvan is Overpowered is something totally different from saying there is something fundamentally wrong with the initiative system.
But since faction vs faction balancing is extremely complex, I mostly rely on valuing spells, skills & artifacts against each other.
So if a medium strength righteous might gives +10 attack, than that means it gives the whole army a damage boost of +50%.
So how does that compare to the proposal to nerf haste to 10/0.01 or 10/0.02? = Doesn't make sense.
Haste should at least be around 30% to compare with RM. There are only 2 possible conclusions:
Both spells are too strong or both are too weak. Same applies to the artifacts.
EDIT
Also my proposal about hero ini was not based on haste etc but on the following comparison
H3 = 7 creatures + 1 hero all 1 turn = 7 creatures 10 ini + 1 hero 10 ini
H5 reality: 7 creatures 10.6 ini + hero 10 ini
equilibrium: 7 creatures 10.6 ini + hero 10.6 ini
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted July 02, 2015 07:42 PM |
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I get your point but you miss something out.
check this: you said the Sylvan dragon is the best in the game because of the init.
Check this out.
If we take the dragon as blueprint creature with a strength of X.
If righteous might adds 10 attack this will make the value of the dragon equal to X*150%
Now, lets say that you add 50% initiative to that creature initiative.
This makes his initiative equal to 150%X as well.
Now, Morale, positive by default in most cases. every time it triggers it adds 0.4 of the ATB bar which increase the potency of the creature for that turn by 40% which makes it 140%X in strength.
Now lets combine does strengths.
If you cast rightous magic + haste creature ability does not go 50%X + 50%X + X= 200%X, no, it goes like this 50%*50%*X=250%
So if X is 70 dragons, their offensive power jumps up by 2.5 times (value of 175 dragons), which is pretty impressive even on small scale fights.
I dont even count Luck here that multiplies this by 1.8.
Same goes for initiative and Endurance.
This rule is not viable for any other combination if we exclude initiative from the equation.
For example Endurance and Rightous might stack cumulatively 10 attack adds 50%, 10 defence add 50% so basically you have 150 dragons.
now if you add 50% initiative boost the boost and the creatures with 1/2.
so basically 150 dragons jump to 225.
Only casting haste without any other buffs already boost Might hero bonuses exponentially too.
this calculations are from the view point for one creature.
Not comparing one with another.
Basically boosting Faster creatures will get even higher bonuses in camprison with slower creatures. It is a matter of relativity between the creature initiatives.
Tomorrow I will replay the battle from today with BANNED light magic to prove you that Sylvan will not win with such a high advantage.
Actually I will replay it twice autocombat.
combat one - players will cast all boosting magics.
Combat 2 - - players will cast all boosting magic without haste.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted July 02, 2015 08:12 PM |
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Quote:
If righteous might adds 10 attack this will make the value of the dragon equal to X*150%
Now, lets say that you add 50% initiative to that creature initiative.
This makes his initiative equal to 150%X as well.
For 50% haste, you need 50 spellpower, but 50 SP on RM is a boost of 90% in attack. So unfair comparison.
even more importantly RM boosts all creatures equally because it is a flat rate and attack is always useful. initiative is not. if you give +10A to a blade dancer it helps a lot, but +5 initiative on a blade dancer hardly matters. On a dragon both matter a lot, but over the whole lineup RM as mass spell is more beneficial.
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Elessar
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 03, 2015 02:57 AM |
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Edited by Elessar at 02:59, 03 Jul 2015.
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Eliminating gains in Offense
Welp, despite magnus telling me upthread that it was "not possible" (perhaps he misunderstood my intentions), I just went in and changed all of the "attribute probabilities" (AttributeProbs, in the HeroClass file) for all of the classes to virtually eliminate gains in Offense. [To avoid possible division by zero errors I left a 1% chance for Offense, but simply shifted the rest all over to Defense for each class.] Just did a quick test with some level trees, and it works-my ranger got to level 10 and gained 7 of those points in defense, none in offense.
Now, this is just an experiment and I don't intend said percentages to become carved in stone, but this is something I've been wanting to do for awhile now; all of the talk upthread about the effects of initiative vs. offense ignores the bigger problem-combat is simply MUCH too bloody. If I can eliminate one powerful enemy stack with one volley from my elves (or titans, or whoever), well, not only is that ridiculous, it is simply wrong as well, and makes for terrible play balance. And does in fact greatly favor creatures/factions/artifacts with higher initiatives.
While there certainly could be some unintended consequences, I wanted the biggest effect to be on hero vs. hero battles. Now such contests will be truly epic, the top stacks from each side slugging it out without killing each other in 1-3 rounds. And the first shooter stack to fire won't immediately decide the battle (or at least eliminate the strongest enemy shooters right off the bat).
Sure, hero vs. environment will also take longer, but that means the enemy walkers will likely reach your shooter guards before they all die, and I also think that is a good thing. I also have a map that I've been toying with which has nothing for O/D other than Marletto Towers.
If I knew where the default starting stat values were hiding, I'd also have no class start with any Offense at all.
Thoughts? Or will this excessively favor one class or faction?
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