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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 359 pages long: 1 40 80 120 160 200 240 280 320 ... 343 344 345 346 347 ... 359 · «PREV / NEXT»
Gidoza
Gidoza


Known Hero
posted April 23, 2018 06:18 PM
Edited by Gidoza at 18:31, 23 Apr 2018.

magnomagus said:
the min/max dmg values from defaultstats are not read, so they are the same as in toe (hardcoded)


That still doesn't explain how the formula works.

My assumption, if I'm understanding the guide correctly, is that attack and defence have no influence over one another as they did in Heroes 3 (where the matter is how much more you have of one over the other).  Rather here, it seems that each attack point individually increases damage by 2.5% per point, so 40 would be double damage, 80 triple, and 120 is quadruple max.  Meanwhile, Defence increases "theoretical hit points" rather than actually reducing damage, but matching it out yields that 40 Defence halves damage, 80 is a third, and 120 is a quarter max.  Is this correct?

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 23, 2018 07:53 PM
Edited by thGryphn at 19:57, 23 Apr 2018.

Gidoza said:
magnomagus said:
the min/max dmg values from defaultstats are not read, so they are the same as in toe (hardcoded)


That still doesn't explain how the formula works.

My assumption, if I'm understanding the guide correctly, is that attack and defence have no influence over one another as they did in Heroes 3 (where the matter is how much more you have of one over the other).  Rather here, it seems that each attack point individually increases damage by 2.5% per point, so 40 would be double damage, 80 triple, and 120 is quadruple max.  Meanwhile, Defence increases "theoretical hit points" rather than actually reducing damage, but matching it out yields that 40 Defence halves damage, 80 is a third, and 120 is a quarter max.  Is this correct?


No.
Here is the hardcoded "damage dealt" formula in Heroes 5, and thus MMH5.5...


If (A)ttack Stat of attacker > (D)efense Stat of defender, then:

(Base Damage) * (#Creatures) * (1 + OffenseSkillFactor) * (1 - DefenseSkillFactor) * LuckFactor * [1 + DamageMultiplier * (A-D)]



Else If D > A, then:

(Base Damage) * (#Creatures) * (1 + OffenseSkillFactor) * (1 - DefenseSkillFactor) * LuckFactor / [1 + DamageMultiplier * (D-A)]




In original ToTE, DamageMultiplier = 0.05.

Currently in MMH5.5, DamageMultiplier = 0.025.


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Gidoza
Gidoza


Known Hero
posted April 24, 2018 03:35 PM
Edited by Gidoza at 15:42, 24 Apr 2018.

thGryphn said:
Gidoza said:
magnomagus said:
the min/max dmg values from defaultstats are not read, so they are the same as in toe (hardcoded)


That still doesn't explain how the formula works.

My assumption, if I'm understanding the guide correctly, is that attack and defence have no influence over one another as they did in Heroes 3 (where the matter is how much more you have of one over the other).  Rather here, it seems that each attack point individually increases damage by 2.5% per point, so 40 would be double damage, 80 triple, and 120 is quadruple max.  Meanwhile, Defence increases "theoretical hit points" rather than actually reducing damage, but matching it out yields that 40 Defence halves damage, 80 is a third, and 120 is a quarter max.  Is this correct?


No.
Here is the hardcoded "damage dealt" formula in Heroes 5, and thus MMH5.5...


If (A)ttack Stat of attacker > (D)efense Stat of defender, then:

(Base Damage) * (#Creatures) * (1 + OffenseSkillFactor) * (1 - DefenseSkillFactor) * LuckFactor * [1 + DamageMultiplier * (A-D)]



Else If D > A, then:

(Base Damage) * (#Creatures) * (1 + OffenseSkillFactor) * (1 - DefenseSkillFactor) * LuckFactor / [1 + DamageMultiplier * (D-A)]




In original ToTE, DamageMultiplier = 0.05.

Currently in MMH5.5, DamageMultiplier = 0.025.




All right, in that case that's what I originally thought before I went and looked (the guide being H5.5 guide, not the H5 guide), which is that it functions in exactly the same manner as Heroes 3, and so I go back to my original question - when I do the math regarding the damage multiplier, the answers never turn out.  Assuming no offence/defence skill, no luck, and a weakened/blessed creature (thus no variable damage), when I put in the damage multiplier of 0.025, the result is simply not what was put in the calculator.  I find this particularly true on defence, when my unit of 50+ defence over the opponent's attack is getting more than double the damage that should be getting registered.

If I get the formula correctly, then to bottom out on damage at 0.25 or one quarter, one would need 30 defence over attack, which is easy to achieve.  I've never seen a one quarter hit of anything as of yet.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 24, 2018 04:09 PM

You have to be specific about under which setting you think the damage calculation formula doesn't work. Creatures, hero stats, skills and perks.

To be clear, the above formula is correct. You must be missing something...

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Tiptoe_McGuffy
Tiptoe_McGuffy


Adventuring Hero
posted April 24, 2018 05:21 PM
Edited by Tiptoe_McGuffy at 17:29, 24 Apr 2018.

thGryphn said:


Else If D > A, then:

(Base Damage) * (#Creatures) * (1 + OffenseSkillFactor) * (1 - DefenseSkillFactor) * LuckFactor / [1 + DamageMultiplier * (D-A)]




In original ToTE, DamageMultiplier = 0.05.

Currently in MMH5.5, DamageMultiplier = 0.025.




I think you actually are not getting the formula right.
In H3 which I think is what you're calculating it like, the D>A gets multiplied by a value (2.5% iirc) and subtracted from 1 to get a multiplier. Here, it's added to 1 to get a divisor.

It makes a huge difference. With a D>A value of 20, for instance, in the H3 formula would result in 1 - 20*.025 = .5 damage multiplier, so 50% damage.
In the H5.5 formula, D>A = 20 gives 1 + 20*0.25 = 1.5 damage divisor, so 66.7% damage.
To get a 4x damage reduction, you would need 1 + .025 * (D>A) to equal 4, which would need 120 D>A.

The H3 formula means that each extra defense point is relatively more powerful than the last (since damage linearly approaches zero), where the opposite is true for H5.

Not super certain about specific H3 numbers but I believe the concept is right. Someone else correct me if I'm off.

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Gidoza
Gidoza


Known Hero
posted April 24, 2018 09:51 PM

Tiptoe_McGuffy said:
thGryphn said:


Else If D > A, then:

(Base Damage) * (#Creatures) * (1 + OffenseSkillFactor) * (1 - DefenseSkillFactor) * LuckFactor / [1 + DamageMultiplier * (D-A)]




In original ToTE, DamageMultiplier = 0.05.

Currently in MMH5.5, DamageMultiplier = 0.025.




I think you actually are not getting the formula right.
In H3 which I think is what you're calculating it like, the D>A gets multiplied by a value (2.5% iirc) and subtracted from 1 to get a multiplier. Here, it's added to 1 to get a divisor.

It makes a huge difference. With a D>A value of 20, for instance, in the H3 formula would result in 1 - 20*.025 = .5 damage multiplier, so 50% damage.
In the H5.5 formula, D>A = 20 gives 1 + 20*0.25 = 1.5 damage divisor, so 66.7% damage.
To get a 4x damage reduction, you would need 1 + .025 * (D>A) to equal 4, which would need 120 D>A.

The H3 formula means that each extra defense point is relatively more powerful than the last (since damage linearly approaches zero), where the opposite is true for H5.

Not super certain about specific H3 numbers but I believe the concept is right. Someone else correct me if I'm off.


Thanks I appreciate the clarification - this is what I wondered the posts before last, but I expressed it incorrectly - I got the number 120 right, but I'm wrong that that number is independent of the opposite skill.  I'll try calculating things out with this formula instead and see if things add up properly.

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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted April 25, 2018 09:36 PM

Hi, I've run into strange issue. Sometimes, after playing the game, sursors starts alternating betweet move and hourglass. My guess is some thread is doing something. The problem is, when that happens, half of the clicks on adventure map are ignored, so it becomes tiresome to play. Also, one time when I eliminated a player, this stopped and game continued regulary. Is this a known issue?
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"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted April 25, 2018 09:53 PM

faq
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MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted April 25, 2018 09:58 PM

Thank you. It seems that I am blind as I was looking through the faq
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"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN

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Gidoza
Gidoza


Known Hero
posted April 30, 2018 06:47 PM
Edited by Gidoza at 22:03, 30 Apr 2018.

Query - Is there a way to change the proportional costs of mass spells and empowered spells as compared to the standard spell?

I'm just thinking - even if I were to pay the cost of the normal spell for *each* unit affected from a mass spell, it would still absolutely be worth it, because I'm still saving all that time and having all those extra effects.  It seems to me that three or four times the cost is still well worth it even to slow two groups at once in a fight that matters, because I then have more time for more effects.  Similarly with Empowered spells - one doesn't feel much of a punishment of casting cost when the battle doesn't last long enough in order to run out of spell points.  2.5 or 3 times the cost would make more sense to me here.

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okrane
okrane


Famous Hero
posted May 02, 2018 03:01 PM

Is it me or is Dungeon very weak in this mod?
Ive played quite a few single player creeping matches with most towns and dungeon is the one which stands out as being painfully slow, and every unit loss stings badly because of their low counts.

The damage scaling in this mod has been changed and creatures do overall less damage.Dungeon has always been the glass cannon Town which used to strike first and very hard at the enemy leaving them very weak after the first onslaught

Blood Furies are no longer the powerhouse they were.

Am I doing something wrong or am I on to something?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted May 02, 2018 03:15 PM

You're probably trying to creep with a might class? Otherwise 6-7 stalker stacks(plus a few hydras week 2) with destructive (or a few furies plus hero attacks vs slower walkers) can do the trick just fine.
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okrane
okrane


Famous Hero
posted May 02, 2018 03:19 PM

No, I'm creeping with a warlock. It's not that they can't creep - it's just that they do it so much worse than other towns.

Destruction does less damage at low spell power.furies do less damage and are slower and you only get hydras mid week 2 after a hefty investment.

Compared to a wizard with summoning or any warmachine hero, the creeping is miles slower and riskier.

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Kranyum
Kranyum

Tavern Dweller
posted May 02, 2018 10:56 PM

This discussion about Dungeon made me think I saw one of their Assassin Heroes, named Welygg, had a very interesting ability, the one which makes enemy stacks more likely to join the hero - BUT (and a big but at that) - the hero cannot get Diplomacy skill, as he does not have Leadership available to its class...

I wonder why - wouldnt it be better for that hero with that speciality to be a Warlord and have Leadership -> diplomacy available?
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fidanas
fidanas


Adventuring Hero
posted May 03, 2018 11:58 AM

Same thing with Haven and Markal. Specialty "golden tongue". Leadership and diplomacy not applicable. Major mistake imho.

As for Dungeon weakness, it wasn't strong in the original game also. A pain in the ass, and a constant struggle where other factions had powerfull creeping and overall behavior.
But...if you choose a tottally different approach, Dark elves has one of the most powerfull creeping behavior.
Forget might orientation. Forget massive recruitments and forget straight forward attacking.
Build your hero (Warlock) carefully, roam the map with just the stealth first level troops. Empower your spell abilities. Add to your ranks the 6th level stealth witches.
All this time...hide and burn. Dark ritual. And repeat.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted May 03, 2018 12:43 PM

fidanas said:
As for Dungeon weakness, it wasn't strong in the original game also.

What are you talking about, they had top tier creeping Tricky to get right but amazingly fast at clearing things, along with necro and academy. Except academy normally lacked logistics which reduced their creeping potential. Warmachinists not included because they make creeping easy regardless of faction.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 03, 2018 01:57 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 14:03, 03 May 2018.

I have never had any issues with dungeon early game, unlike TOE you can get extra growth from recruitment very easy with overlord governors (only for dungeon recruitment is a very strong perk). If witches die too much, don't put them on the battlefield at all, just let the enemy drop dead on your hydras and minotaurs.

Quote:
Same thing with Haven and Markal. Specialty "golden tongue". Leadership and diplomacy not applicable. Major mistake imho.


That was on purpose to prevent the snowball effect that plagues the older games. Also the diplomacy formulas from nival do not adapt to difficulty level or rmg settings, so they become useless on higher difficulties, this cannot be prevented. This is why diplomacy has to be before empathy since for an advanced player empathy is easily worth 2 slots.

@Gidoza: hardcoded






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Kranyum
Kranyum

Tavern Dweller
posted May 03, 2018 04:48 PM
Edited by Kranyum at 16:50, 03 May 2018.

magnomagus said:


That was on purpose to prevent the snowball effect that plagues the older games. Also the diplomacy formulas from nival do not adapt to difficulty level or rmg settings, so they become useless on higher difficulties, this cannot be prevented. This is why diplomacy has to be before empathy since for an advanced player empathy is easily worth 2 slots.

@Gidoza: hardcoded






Agreed, but honestly, Heroes is enjoyed by many as a single player game, where getting some extra variation out of your gameplay is fun - a shame that a potential play-style got locked out for balance purposes.

Edit: or why not simply remove diplomacy from the game - it is indeed quite snowbally - might as well replace it with another perk in leadership and cut the heroes with this speciality.

Multiplayer can ban those heroes I guess...
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Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 03, 2018 07:02 PM

magnomagus said:

Quote:
Same thing with Haven and Markal. Specialty "golden tongue". Leadership and diplomacy not applicable. Major mistake imho.


That was on purpose to prevent the snowball effect that plagues the older games. Also the diplomacy formulas from nival do not adapt to difficulty level or rmg settings, so they become useless on higher difficulties, this cannot be prevented. This is why diplomacy has to be before empathy since for an advanced player empathy is easily worth 2 slots.




Heroes 5 Manual states (pages 319 and 320) that diplomacy skill adds bonus of 0.2 to evaluation step.
I suppose that is the same bonus that Courtier_DiplomacyBonusPerLevel variable gives after the hero reaches level 4?
If that is so, then diplomacy skill cannot really create any kind of snowball effect if combined with golden tongue hero ability.
It would be interesting that every faction have at least one golden tongue hero.


Courtier_DiplomacyBonusPerLevel variable in MMH5.5 DefaultStats.xdb is defined as follows:
<Courtier_DiplomacyBonusPerLevel>0.05</Courtier_DiplomacyBonusPerLevel>

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azalen
azalen


Adventuring Hero
posted May 04, 2018 02:02 AM
Edited by azalen at 02:11, 04 May 2018.

okrane said:
Is it me or is Dungeon very weak in this mod?
Ive played quite a few single player creeping matches with most towns and dungeon is the one which stands out as being painfully slow, and every unit loss stings badly because of their low counts.

The damage scaling in this mod has been changed and creatures do overall less damage.Dungeon has always been the glass cannon Town which used to strike first and very hard at the enemy leaving them very weak after the first onslaught

Blood Furies are no longer the powerhouse they were.

Am I doing something wrong or am I on to something?



The biggest bang for the buck creeping skills for a generic might hero would be War Machines->Tent.  Also, if you have a hero that starts with an investment in the Combat skill, than Combat->Martial Arts/Chain Attack/Stunning Strike are also really good.

If you are playing Yrwanna (probably considered the overall best Overlord), you are getting Aura of Swiftness and spamming Encourage on your Furies... in this case you are probably skipping Stunning Strike, but you desperately want War Machines->Tent for your Furies.  

I haven't really tested Furies with a Stunning Strike build yet (in theory, with their initiative, it could be really effective).    

Deep Hydras with Stand your Ground are another way to creep (although this isn't particularly viable against level 6-7 stacks).  

Creeping with Warlocks.. its simple... just pickup summoning.  Pyromancy is currently the most overpowered individual skill in the game because it gets you Firewall.  Firewall is an insane creeping power house that breaks level 6-7 stacks with ease via firewall stacking in front of your blockers - and stalkers give you all the time in the world to lay down those stacked firewalls.
Firewall also works great against ranged units.  Never mind that elementals are good week 1-2 (starting with the elemental ring is nice), fire trap is awesome against walkers, etc... I actually like the Warlock that starts with summoning the best (his name escapes me at the moment) even though his special is kinda blah (elementals from dead stacks).  

Let summoning handle the creeping for you (it is more mana efficient than destruction anyway), and build your destruction skills over time for the end battle.  





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