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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 371 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 70 140 210 280 350 ... 367 368 369 370 371 · «PREV / NEXT»
thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 26, 2019 12:22 PM

Gidoza said:

In my personal mod I swapped the specials of Titans and Storm Lords.  This means Stories have a standard ranges attack and can use an alternate ranged attack even in melee; while Titans have a single-use storm special and are otherwise just very strong melee units.  I think it works perfectly.


I really like that! But i think Storm Lords should be the tank melee unit with one-time storm call, Titans ranged with call lightning. Better fits with tradition; Titans throwing bolts of lightning. I'll make that change for my personal use.

@magno, you may consider this for the main mod, what do you think?


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Mystang89
Mystang89

Tavern Dweller
posted March 26, 2019 01:19 PM

dredknight said:
Welcome @Mystang89,

Here are some answers. Regarding economy:
1. Try to get the mines as fast as possible. It is not necessary to get them all as soon as you can build each turn.
2. If you are thinking long term always focus on the Town hall upgrades without sacrificing early dwelling construction
3. Try to breach the border guards as early as possible so you can get a second town in the next zone.
4. Look for Cornocopia set artifacts and give one per hero (because they do not stack in the same one).

Regarding battles:
Stack size matters, if 1 unit has 100 hp and does 10 damage, ten of them will have 1000 hp and will do 100 damage.



Thanks @dredknight ! I think I underestimate the stacks. I had 2 stack of 10 collosai (I'm sure I misspelled that, they are the highest tier from academy) along with the ballista which had all the skills to make it stronger. The ai had 3 mid tier stacks of around 150 to 300 mobs each and they completely wrecked me.

Either I suck that bad or I need to find another strat lol.

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Gidoza
Gidoza


Famous Hero
posted March 26, 2019 04:03 PM

thGryphn said:
Gidoza said:

In my personal mod I swapped the specials of Titans and Storm Lords.  This means Stories have a standard ranges attack and can use an alternate ranged attack even in melee; while Titans have a single-use storm special and are otherwise just very strong melee units.  I think it works perfectly.


I really like that! But i think Storm Lords should be the tank melee unit with one-time storm call, Titans ranged with call lightning. Better fits with tradition; Titans throwing bolts of lightning. I'll make that change for my personal use.

@magno, you may consider this for the main mod, what do you think?




I'm glad you appreciate it.  

I've had some fun doing some personal editing and seeing what's possible.  My excel sheet in another thread shows some of the crazy things I've tried - BUT I think I've found the solution to the Steal Ammo ability's being crap for Poltergheists - I gave them only 1-2 damage but a movement of 25; they function to disrupt shooters and nothing else - bahahahaha!!!  

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 26, 2019 04:11 PM
Edited by Elvin at 16:13, 26 Mar 2019.

That.. Sounds fun but is probably broken outside duel games After all you need ghosts as blockers, dmg is an afterthought.

What is hilarious though, is an archdemon with higher relocation reach than their own speed. Oh sweet archer snatching ^^ A friend insisted that they get unlimited relocation reach but imo it is too broken to reach the back rows without moving. Front rows however..
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted March 26, 2019 05:49 PM

@dredknight: there is an RMGpresettable.xdb in reftables that define which objects can appear on which type of soil

@ThGryphn: I don't like it. call lightning and ranged attack is almost the same thing on one unit.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 26, 2019 06:15 PM
Edited by Elvin at 18:16, 26 Mar 2019.

Well, it is not that pointless. Titans will end up blocked before long and triggering retaliations can be pretty painful for a wizard's meagre might stats.

Naturally, the lightning damage should be lower than your out of range shooting so as not to replace it by default. Except vs exceptional defense maybe.

It's fine either way, a colossus-like titan without ranged attack has a charm of his own. Personally I'd like a titan to be a shooter with both lightning and storm but that would defeat the purpose of alternative upgrades.
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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted March 26, 2019 06:34 PM

magnomagus said:

@ThGryphn: I don't like it. call lightning and ranged attack is almost the same thing on one unit.


I agree. If you make the melee titan to have the stormcaller ability I will never pick him as his damage output goes down the drain.

THe lighting strike also helps to penetrate against exceptional defense (as Gryphn said) which gives you tactical choice of picking a shooter that is good against ranged or a melee blocker than can do constant damage whatever the defense levels of the opponents are.
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 26, 2019 09:00 PM
Edited by thGryphn at 21:11, 26 Mar 2019.

magnomagus said:

@ThGryphn: I don't like it. call lightning and ranged attack is almost the same thing on one unit.


That's the whole point!

Look, I don't know how you don't see this but currently the two units are characteristically the same but stats and abilities make the Storm Lords a no-brainer to pick.

They're the same. Why? They are both tank units with ranged damage.

Storm Lord is so much better. Why?
1) He has the storm that can deal huge non-resistable mass damage to an area for three turns while crippling shooters there.
2) He is a shooter. Couple him with Archery and certain artifacts, Titan is absolutely no match. His damage scales up with Attack and many other perks and artifacts.
3) He has no melee penalty, so it's not like you can get close and reduce his damage output.

Titan damage is 40-75, SL 40-65. That's only 5 damage per unit less and that's only at melee. SL ranged damage average is 27.5 at long range, 55 at close range. And that's only when his attack is equal to opponents defense. Against lower tier, he just wipes them out, while Titan does only 40 Air damage or risks retaliation in melee.

Giving shooter ability and Call Lightning to a single unit makes sense because he becomes the ultimate ranged unit which can never be blocked. I would even strip from him the no-melee-penalty. This unit again should be the Titan as it suits the lore better.

SL can be made the beefier melee unit with higher nominal damage and the storm that disrupts the ranged enemy stacks.

This way the units will feel and play much more different and more balanced with each other.


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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 26, 2019 09:08 PM

dredknight said:
If you make the melee titan to have the stormcaller ability I will never pick him as his damage output goes down the drain.



I really don't understand what you meant here. Currently Titan ranged damage is bad so he must use melee to show himself.

If the melee unit had the Storm, he would start the combat with the Storm, and then engage in melee. The Storm is very useful. 20 damage per turn per square. It's 9 squares! Potentially 540 damage per Storm Lord!!

PVP, it disrupts the enemy line-up. PVE it can actually deal a lot of damage because the AI does not always escape from it. Either way, it's very useful and a great way to start the combat as a precursor to melee assault.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted March 26, 2019 09:14 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 21:15, 26 Mar 2019.

No I remember in the old days, call lightning was very rarely useful.
You are only making an argument for further nerfing the storm titan ability (or buffing call lightning) and btw the titans also have +20HP.
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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted March 26, 2019 09:16 PM

@thGryphn, actually the storm 20 damage per titan is nothing. The main idea of the storm is disruption of shooters, damage is just a flavour.

Usually at the time you have about 20 titans all of your other units are way more in quantity so some 200 damage per round is kind of nothing because for that round all 7 of your creatures has caused much more damage.

So here is the deal if we make the upgraded titans as per your request:
- melee + storm caller - Because it is melee it will have terrible damage output as it wont be able to hit every round.
- Shooter + lighting caller - this will be the ultimate unit for me. Each turn is damage, where if needed you can use the call lighting instead of close attack to go around retaliation which increases unit survivability even more.

Having the options above, I would pick the Shooter upgrade 100% of the time because it not only shoots but have a good melee alternative in the face of the lighting strike.

The idea of the storm caller is to make the Shooter titan the Alpha shooter of the game, he is not only the best at what he does but also has the ability to diminish the performance of other shooters.
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 26, 2019 09:41 PM

Don't you guys see the two units now play the same way?: Ranged until ranged is not the best option. Then melee.

For Titans, ranged is not the best option when the opponent is in range and there would be no/mild retaliation.

For SL, ranged is not the best option when the stack is blocked.

The only difference is Titans have a non-scaling, less than ideal ranged damage but better melee damage. And, of course, SL has the Storm.

@dk, I think you're minimizing how damaging the storm is to the opponent. Sure, if talking about 20 units, it's not that significant. But think of a long game where you can amass 500 units. Would you rather have Titans or Storm Lords? Or, would you rather face 500 Titans or 500 Storm Lords?

To be clear, my idea involves beefing up the melee unit with higher hit points (220) and damage output (45-75), with the storm that reduces the ranged damage by 60% (not 30%). The ranged alternative would have lower HP (190) and damage (40-60) and removed no-melee-penalty. So, I really don't think you can say you'd pick the ranged unit 100% of the time


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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted March 26, 2019 10:27 PM

thGryphn said:

To be clear, my idea involves beefing up the melee unit with higher hit points (220) and damage output (45-75), with the storm that reduces the ranged damage by 60% (not 30%). The ranged alternative would have lower HP (190) and damage (40-60) and removed no-melee-penalty. So, I really don't think you can say you'd pick the ranged unit 100% of the time




Alright I see your point now. You want to make the ranged more ranged but the melee more like beafy hydra. I see nothing wrong with that but I don't see nothing wrong with how things are now too.

The only point I miss is that in your case the melee upgrade gets the stormcaller ability which does not fit for me strategic wise nor lorewise.

With the shooter + stormcaller, you cast the storm ability and then blast the hell out of the archers before they are out of the cloud.
If the ability is with the melee upgrade there is no follow up.
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Lilt
Lilt

Tavern Dweller
posted March 26, 2019 11:44 PM
Edited by Lilt at 14:44, 27 Mar 2019.

Open question: can someone elaborate on how the bonuses for movement and initiative compound. For example, for movement:

Logistics +30% / Boots of Swift Journey +20%? / Explorer Specialization +15%

Does this collectively equal 65%, so if the base value is 1000 movement points then it will be 1650. Or does it compound, like 1000 + 30% = 1300, then 1300 + 15% = 1495, then 1495 + 20% = 1794.

Does initiative work similarly? So say the Windspeaker ability gives a 1.5 ATB bonus at level 30 to the hero. Does the 33% boost from sorcery apply to the new 11.5 (3.7) value, or is it applied to the value of 10 (3.3) and then added to 11.5?

DeepLord said:

Counterspell: Many be it needs a completion: It can be used only once per battle. But it is just don't worth to use with a high level magic hero who is able to learn this skill. We cannot restrict the number of casts as it is hardcodded. If we could we would have edited it in numerous ways.



I'm comparatively super green so feel free to ignore my thoughts, but perhaps an idea would be to make it more powerful for an endgame hero and less for creeping by having it cost the hero only 0.5 or less ATB to use.

Since it's only usable once per battle, it's not too exploitable, and it performs an important function in a niche situation while remaining at least somewhat competitive with awesome endgame spells tier 5 spells and the very fun Mark of the Sorcerer.

Additionally, it can also be countered by a creature using a spell to "free up" the hero provided the initiative order allows, or simply by the hero using a leadership/combat/etc. ability that isn't a spell.

dredknight said:

With the shooter + stormcaller, you cast the storm ability and then blast the hell out of the archers before they are out of the cloud. If the ability is with the melee upgrade there is no follow up.


I do really like that current dynamic.
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Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted March 27, 2019 07:40 AM

Lilt said:
Open question: can someone elaborate on how the bonuses for movement and initiative compound.



There are official fan manuals that addresses these questions.
Link to fan manuals:

Heroes V Manual - Made by Fans, Approved by Ubisoft
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/game_manuals.shtml

For movement see pages 299 – 301
For initiative see pages 309 – 313

I suppose Magnomagus changed some default values for some terrains, but the basic math should still work as before.


Lilt said:

Since it's only usable once per battle, it's not abusable, and it performs an important function in a niche situation while remaining at least somewhat competitive with awesome endgame spells tier 5 spells and the very fun Mark of the Sorcerer.



Definition of Counterspell form the above-mentioned fan manual:
“Special combat ability. Negates all effects of the next spell cast by the enemy, but drains twice the mana cost of that spell.”

There is no limitation on how many times you can use it in combat as long as you have the mana points to back it up.



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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 27, 2019 09:15 AM
Edited by Elvin at 09:18, 27 Mar 2019.

Yeah unlimited. But it is not improved by sorcery and will not double the final spell cost but rather the original unmodified one. So opponent may benefit from arcane training and erratic mana but you'll still pay its full value. Opponents with sorcery play before your next counterspell so there are more than a few drawbacks.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted March 27, 2019 12:49 PM

AFAIK counterspell is completely hardcoded

In a real world without damage stats it doesn't make sense to me to shoot lightning from your hand if you can also invoke it from the sky, especially if both actions have exactly the same purpose: hitting a single target. This is why I disliked the original titan design from the start. Since titans are godlike invoking from the sky is more epic. Also a melee titan with call storm will almost only move his feet in battle.

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Lilt
Lilt

Tavern Dweller
posted March 27, 2019 02:42 PM
Edited by Lilt at 14:47, 27 Mar 2019.

Skeggy said:


There are official fan manuals that addresses these questions.
Link to fan manuals:

Heroes V Manual - Made by Fans, Approved by Ubisoft
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/game_manuals.shtml

For movement see pages 299 – 301
For initiative see pages 309 – 313

I suppose Magnomagus changed some default values for some terrains, but the basic math should still work as before.


Thanks! I see my movement question was answered completely by the manual! The initiative end was left a little ambiguous, but I'm going to go ahead and assume it's calculated similarly to movement. Thanks!


Skeggy said:

Definition of Counterspell form the above-mentioned fan manual:
“Special combat ability. Negates all effects of the next spell cast by the enemy, but drains twice the mana cost of that spell.”

There is no limitation on how many times you can use it in combat as long as you have the mana points to back it up.


My bad, I assumed it was something the manual didn't cover when mentioned here:

Quote:
DeepLord said:

Counterspell: Many be it needs a completion: It can be used only once per battle. But it is just don't worth to use with a high level magic hero who is able to learn this skill. We cannot restrict the number of casts as it is hardcodded. If we could we would have edited it in numerous ways.

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Gidoza
Gidoza


Famous Hero
posted March 27, 2019 05:10 PM

dredknight said:
thGryphn said:

To be clear, my idea involves beefing up the melee unit with higher hit points (220) and damage output (45-75), with the storm that reduces the ranged damage by 60% (not 30%). The ranged alternative would have lower HP (190) and damage (40-60) and removed no-melee-penalty. So, I really don't think you can say you'd pick the ranged unit 100% of the time




Alright I see your point now. You want to make the ranged more ranged but the melee more like beafy hydra. I see nothing wrong with that but I don't see nothing wrong with how things are now too.

The only point I miss is that in your case the melee upgrade gets the stormcaller ability which does not fit for me strategic wise nor lorewise.

With the shooter + stormcaller, you cast the storm ability and then blast the hell out of the archers before they are out of the cloud.
If the ability is with the melee upgrade there is no follow up.


The issue I have with the current setup of the units (and I think this applies to units across the board generally) is that the Titan and Storm Lord are just *too similar*.  While there are technical differences between the two, it's hard to mark them as real or meaningful differences:  at least, I wouldn't say that the two-unit branch is justified by the current setup.

In essence, I'd like to see more distinctions in the game like Pit Lords/Pit Spawns or Squires/Vindicators, where the purpose of the units are quite distinctive or even clear-cut.  Choices like these are few and far between: it is nice to have things that I can in earnest consider to be real options.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted March 27, 2019 06:30 PM

Imo the only way to make titans different enough would be if one had a stormstrike effect(would still be similar to thunder thane but ranged) or if it was a completely melee unit, possibly with aoe or displacement attack. Not many unique possibilities as caster, outside chain lightning, stormbolt and what not.
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