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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5
Thread: [MOD] Might & Magic: Heroes 5.5 This Popular Thread is 400 pages long: 1 50 100 150 200 250 300 350 ... 393 394 395 396 397 ... 400 · «PREV / NEXT»
thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 04, 2019 11:21 AM

magnomagus said:
actually I wasn't that busy with it, I can easily afford to nerf summon hive as well.


Well, I don't know what others think about this but we can easily reduce its level to Advanced and lower its initiative a bit, without making it too weak.


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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 04, 2019 11:45 AM

frogo said:

Quote:
The fellows who are working on reverse engineering, they should put priority into finding a way to changing the stunning blow ATB formula to depend on hero level, if at all possible.



I have do disagree here aswell. This would probably weaken the might heroes early game a lot (could use a slight weakening, but i think this would result into to much) and lategame might heroes can do it without stun anyway, its more a bonus.




You may have misinterpreted what I said overall, but especially here I do not understand why you assume making the stun strength dependent on hero level would make it weaker.

0.4 now seems too much, and I agree for early game but not for late game. For late game, 0.4 is too weak (hero can take other actions that's better invested than chaining and simply hitting, AND might hero's actions are less consequential than a magic hero's actions in a big and long battle).

What if we could make the stun strength = 0.30 + HeroLevel/200? or something similar... Wouldn't that be best of both worlds?


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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 04, 2019 11:56 AM

I thought when scaling you d start with a way lower value, i guess i had something diffrent in mind when you said that.

I dont think its to weak in late game. I often times dont bother with picking up a magic school with might, as i think my heroes turns are probably still spend best just stunning important stacks of the enemy.
Also, even if it gets a little weaker in late, that wouldnt be to bad to equal out its early game power.
I suppose the forumla you ve given wouldnt hurt, as its staying pretty close to 0.3 anyway. But i think it would make it less intuitive for a minor gain (if any gain at all, i think 0.3 all the way is pretty good). Also, for late game combat offers other perks even.
You could for example skip MA and get avenging + chain + stun, giving you 3 times the stunning power. You miss out on MA, but in very late game, MA is not to important anymore. tripple stun is pretty devastating. There is no need to scale that up i think.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 04, 2019 05:03 PM

there is really no need for stunning strike to scale, it will only add unnecessary complexity.

The game will always have skills that are 100% creeping, 100% hero vs hero or 100% economical in nature.
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 04, 2019 07:42 PM

magnomagus said:
there is really no need for stunning strike to scale, it will only add unnecessary complexity.

The game will always have skills that are 100% creeping, 100% hero vs hero or 100% economical in nature.



Then don't touch my might stun

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 04, 2019 08:21 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 20:22, 04 Nov 2019.

People always like to hold on to their overpowered skills, at these moments I wished I had never touched it, in TOE the value was only 0.1,
so I could advertise the next update as stunning strike is double as effective!! and people would love the change
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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 04, 2019 08:39 PM

It's not exactly that in my case. I reported several OP issues before. I don't enjoy OP. It spoils the game for me.

With might stun though, I don't find it that OP and it adds fun to playing a might hero, especially against those holier-than-thou magic adversaries

No offense to magic fans

I certainly wouldn't want any increase in the effect, but it's just right as it is now if you ask me.

For one thing, it is really not useful for other than early game creeping, something that gets exaggerated focus in fast and short games as used in the tournaments, from which the OP alarm was raised.

Another thing is that the stun is not that effective on high init, >13, creatures which collect back ATB points in a blink. I had many instances when I stunned a 16 unit Fury stack that was about to act after my action, and they still acted right after my stun!

So not that OP really...


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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 04, 2019 09:14 PM

Quote:
Another thing is that the stun is not that effective on high init, >13, creatures which collect back ATB points in a blink. I had many instances when I stunned a 16 unit Fury stack that was about to act after my action, and they still acted right after my stun!


there are few very high ini creatures and the same can be said in the opposite direction where fights against swordsman or hydras become a joke.

but I only look at the cost/effectiveness of the other stuns and adjust hive down the same way, if I were to leave stunning strike at 0.4 then why should I not boost lightning to 0.75 and icebolt to 0.6?

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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 05, 2019 02:04 PM
Edited by frogo at 14:14, 05 Nov 2019.

Leaving stun at 0.4 doesnt look like an option to me.
I ve heared a lot of complaints about it being OP and ppl playing mostly might as the chain+stun combo gives you a lot of power pretty quick.

0.2 i dont think is the correct option either right now.
I know 0.2*2=0.4 and that way it feels balanced compared to Master of Ice.
But actually we have something simular as chain for magic:
Mark of the Wizard.
Noone complains about that being OP and its used a lot less than chain, for a variety of reasons:

1. The way towards Mark of the wizard is not as convenient, as wisdom is a pretty weak perk.
2. Very Mana intensive
3. A magic hero turns are way more important than a might heroes turns in a final fight and you often want to do some damage asap, so you dont have the time to cast a mark.
4. The mark more often than not doesnt actually give you double the effectiveness, as it doesnt work very well for aoe-spells.
(2nd fireball is not as well placed, 2nd ice-ring might actually hit nothing if the enemy plays it right and Meteor/armageddon dont work with the mark).
5. You need to replace the mark more often, especially during creeping.
6. needs more perks (master of ice and mark of wizard are from 2 diffrent skills)

Still, it exists and could possibly give me 2*0.4 stunning power with Ice bolt. And stunning strike could possibly give me 3*0.x stunning power, if i was to take avenging strike aswell.
If we were to make those equal, we d have stunning strike nerfed to
0.27.
This actually looks like a decent value to me. I d round that to 0.3 for simplicity (none of these calculations are exact anyway, as there is plenty more factors).



Also, to a slightly diffrent topic:

Quote:
overpowering a skill is never a solution to balancing a weak class, if such a problem exists it must be solved elsewhere.


I agree 100%. Still we have to look at who would suffer the most under the stunning strike nerf.
And as bulya mentioned, its probably going to be Overlords.
Taking away the meele bonus and reducing the stun time is quiete the hit for Overlords, who are the only ones who really stun with meele and those who rely on stunning strike the most.
t2 is somewhat a shooter, with one big diffrence: you cant fully block them in, as they obviously still need to walk up to their target. This forces them to try and kill everything before it actually reaches them. Obviously you can still use blockers and play around with them to take the hits, but its more difficult.
That combined with the squishy nature and low growth of the t2 makes this a very risky business. I think they have never been the strongest might class (not the weakes either though) and now take the biggest hit and i feel like they need some compensation.
I personally was thinking of a growth increase to t1 and t2 (both +1 seems good already).
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 05, 2019 03:36 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 15:42, 05 Nov 2019.

I think comparing with ice bolt is wrong since it cost 9 mana, lightning bolt is closer to the mark since the cost becomes more trivial for casters.

If a creature ATB bar is at 50% or lower, lightning stuns by 0.2 or less otherwise it stuns between 0.2 and 0.4.

Overlord should not depend on combat in any way, it is lorewise not a preferred skill for them (they have a magic attack anim), retaliation doesn't fit dungeon offensive style and will be weak, you may weaken yourself spending so many slots on retaliation.

If they have a weakness, better find it, but I doubt it is blood furies, if you see them as shooters they also have no range penalty and crazy high initiative.

the growth was already boosted by everyone starting with recruitment and will also affect the other dungeon classes
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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 05, 2019 04:05 PM

Quote:
If a creature ATB bar is at 50% or lower, lightning stuns by 0.2 or less otherwise it stuns between 0.2 and 0.4.


If you attac creatures that have a low atb bar, you are just not using the lighning bolt correctly, so thats also not the atb reduction that lighning gives in praxis.

Quote:
Overlord should not depend on combat in any way, it is lorewise not a preferred skill for them (they have a magic attack anim), retaliation doesn't fit dungeon offensive style and will be weak, you may weaken yourself spending so many slots on retaliation.


I see that lore wise combat may not be the preferred skill, but mechanic wise it is, because that gain from chain + stun on such a high ini unit is massive.

Quote:
If they have a weakness, better find it, but I doubt it is blood furies


I never said furies are their weakness. They are the backbone of any overlord build.
And because of that i took them to try and show how much this nerf will effect Overlords. (i m in favor of the nerf, even if only to 0.3 andn ot 0.2)

Quote:
the growth was already boosted by everyone starting with recruitment and will also affect the other dungeon classes


This is not really a boost in growth, as you have to pay a perk for it. If you want to call that a boost in growth, you also have to call that a nerf in what ever perk they are missing for that.
I d even argue is a pretty useless perk, as the main hero generally isnt at his town at the end of the week, so he gets nothing from it.
If you get an Overlord as 2nd hero, it surely does help.



Also, my main point was that they are taking a big hit with the nerf to stunning strike. If you want to argue against that, it makes little sense to take anything but the effect of the stunning strike nerf itself into account, as all the other things stay as they were before.
Given that Overlords take a big hit by the stunning strike nerf, they could only be balanced afterwards if they were overpowered before.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 05, 2019 04:25 PM

recruitment is a perk yes, but much more powerful for dungeon then for other factions, I have to assume a bit that a 2nd overlord will show up soon enough, since the alternative, boosting growth and keeping recruitment will just overpower the warlocks.

Quote:
If you attac creatures that have a low atb bar, you are just not using the lighning bolt correctly, so thats also not the atb reduction that lighning gives in praxis.


that in itself is a weakness of the lightning stun that needs to be added to the comparison.


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bulya
bulya


Adventuring Hero
posted November 05, 2019 04:33 PM

Well, the growth of furies / sisters, which are tier 2 creatures, is actually 5 per week (if I believe the manual, but it was rare that I even doubted it). 5 is actually lower the the growth rate of the hunter, a very powerful tier 3 creature (Skrimishers / Master hunters have 7 growth rate, and are the backbone of the Sylvan early game creeping).

Dungeon has low growth rate in general, not only the furies/sisters, its the scouts, the raiders, the hydras, etc. Which is why Dungeon might feels very squishy, and must rely in every way it can on taking the minimal amount of losses, as unlike say Inferno, there is very little way to compensate for them. And even using 1 unit stacks as blockers isn't as cheap or replaceable (depending if its a mino or a stalker I'm blocking with).

Stun + chain + the init of the furies (as well as the early leadership which gives even more turns) is what makes Overlords fine with such a low growth rate. As in such a way they can take fights with the small army they can get.

But if we nerf it as hard as you suggest then it will be even more squishy.
I don't think warlocks will benefit much from a little growth buff to the furies (say 6 per week instead of 5). Not to speak that warlocks were nerfed last patch with the nerf to invisibility (I don't play Warlocks that often as I don't really enjoy their creep mechanic, but they don't really rely on furies / sister early on, and in a late game fight the amount of furies / sisters doesn't have much impact, not to speak that a Warlock would rather buy an artifact then hire them). So I don't think bringing the fury growth rate to 6 will be that big for Warlocks.
Assasins are good only as secondary heroes, unless the game is played on a relatively easy difficulty level, so I can even skip on how will it effect them.

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted November 05, 2019 04:53 PM
Edited by dredknight at 16:58, 05 Nov 2019.

frogo said:

If you attac creatures that have a low atb bar, you are just not using the lighning bolt correctly, so thats also not the atb reduction that lighning gives in praxis.


There is a difference between creature you want to damage and creature you want to stun back. Also the player is not in control which enemy unit will have ATB at the time of the cast. So Lighting and Ice stuns are good as they are at the moment.

Regarding MoTW stuns are not doubled. The second ice bolt will renew existing stun, not extend it. MoTW is valid only for lighting but should be tested. Besides that each following lighting cast after the first one has diminishing ATB gains due to the nature of the stun (based on current ATB).

Quote:
Overlord should not depend on combat in any way, it is lorewise not a preferred skill for them (they have a magic attack anim), retaliation doesn't fit dungeon offensive style and will be weak, you may weaken yourself spending so many slots on retaliation.

I see that lore wise combat may not be the preferred skill, but mechanic wise it is, because that gain from chain + stun on such a high ini unit is massive.

Quote:
If they have a weakness, better find it, but I doubt it is blood furies



Dungeon Overlord Leadership + T2 + combat stun is OP however you look at it. Also Magno thought about recruitment is on point.
Dungeon faction has 66% chance to get a great Governor at day 1 at the start of each game (which other faction can say such thing?) - Overlord give great recruitment bonus as soon as you get him, while the magic heroes get good amount of knowlege and can be used for side creeping with their high amount of SP.

Moreover each player usually buy 2 additional heroes so the chance grows to 87,78%. Recruitment is the best non battle perk for Dungeon however you compare it to others.

When I am back from trip I will try to get Byula to play that tourney match finish. I made just that build there so you can see the difference (even though it is inferno).

Some side notes:
- I observe match starting heroes on the tourneys. Pretty much every game is Combat hero with Balista and Combat so I believe there is some bias in your words. However feel free to prove me wrong  
- Overlords can get some very high creeping boost by immediately getting into "Last stand" instead of Combat. This auto disables all archer adventure map stacks for the duration of the combat.
- T2 are not the backbone of the army as you say. They are very good in blocking archers and dealing with slow units but cannot provide endurance in battle. Unless the enemy is overwhelmed in a couple of turns you suffer quite some casualties.
That is why use minotaurs. Great damage, Great endurance. In Combination with T2 they are awesome core unit.

For a closure - I can back my words in a tourney game against your strongest race/hero )).

P.S.
There are some plans (not a priority though) to rework the sacrificial altar for Dungeon on the road map.

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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 05, 2019 05:21 PM
Edited by frogo at 17:22, 05 Nov 2019.

@Bulya agreed

Quote:
There is a difference between creature you want to damage and creature you want to stun back. Also the player is not in control which enemy unit will have ATB at the time of the cast. So Lighting and Ice stuns are good as they are at the moment.


Quote:
that in itself is a weakness of the lightning stun that needs to be added to the comparison.



It certainly is, i m just stating we should take the correct average atb reduction, and if played correct, it surely isnt 0.2.


Quote:
Dungeon Overlord Leadership + T2 + combat stun is OP however you look at it.


I agree, but thats also what my argument is based on. Chain/stun is OP in general and especially for Overlords. It needs to be nerfed (i am in favor of reduction to 0.3).
I m just stating that Overlords overall werent OP, even though they had this OP mechanic. This is because Overlords also have great weaknesses (squishy units with little growth), which were equalized by this OP mechanic. If we now, rightfully, nerf this mechnic, it will leave overlords with no compensation. And i think we should help them where they actually need it.

Warlocks dont rely to much on army, so i think they are in a good spot either way.

Quote:
- I observe match starting heroes on the tourneys. Pretty much every game is Combat hero with Balista and Combat so I believe there is some bias in your words. However feel free to prove me wrong  

Might being chosen overwhelmingly often is certainly partly a result of the current chain/stun strength. And therefore i agree it is a problem, remember Bulya and me first stated that we would like to see a nerf to this mechanic. I am not defending the current 0.4 atb reduction. My 2 points are: i d prefer reduction to 0.3 instead of 0.2 and i d like Overlords to get some sort of compensation for taking a pretty big hit with this nerf.

Quote:
Overlords can get some very high creeping boost by immediately getting into "Last stand" instead of Combat. This auto disables all archer adventure map stacks for the duration of the combat.


Again, any arguments going at something that is uneffected by the stun nerf can only work when Overlords used to be OP before (which i dont think they were, even if the Chain/stun combo was OP for them).
Also: taking last stand is also rather suboptimal for overlords, as they really want swiftness. On top of that, last stand is more helping to do fight with "little losses", but thats kinda not a thing for Overlords. Either they have no losses, or big losses. You cant afford to lose even a single fury in a fight. If you have 1 fight per day where you lose a single fury, your fury numbers go down instead of up.

Quote:
T2 are not the backbone of the army as you say. They are very good in blocking archers and dealing with slow units but cannot provide endurance in battle. Unless the enemy is overwhelmed in a couple of turns you suffer quite some casualties.
That is why use minotaurs. Great damage, Great endurance. In Combination with T2 they are awesome core unit.


Maybe for a final fight its more about higher tier units, here i was referring to creeping. t2 is far more useful in creeping than minotaurs.

Quote:
For a closure - I can back my words in a tourney game against your strongest race/hero ))


I am very willing to accept that challenge

Quote:
There are some plans (not a priority though) to rework the sacrificial altar for Dungeon on the road map.


Depending on how that change looks like, it might solve the problem



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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted November 05, 2019 05:34 PM

I would suggest to try a single player game with Necro Reaver (pretty much any magic affinity hero except elementalists) hero and and compare how uneasy you feel to Dungeon Overlord. Also make sure you play on map without added wells.

Also you try to merge best PvP build into creeping and vica versa which is not right IMO . Sure Leadership +1 speed is great for PvP but it comes at an early game cost.

And one more thing, if you can help me to clear this a bit actually.
When you speak about good combat do you refer to clean slate one?
Where there player has zero losses?

Because if that is the case it is not an optimal point of view.

Every hero build more or less has some kind of blind spot army or blind spot time frame during the game where he suffers casualties.

For example - in my game with Byula - I got 3 Inferno castles one week 1, because high number of low tier units were part of my hero build as a Gatekeeper. I lost half my army but due the gain I got, 1 week was enough to recover and even have gains.

You already saw my Inferno creeping videos. This are tourney fights where I cant go back if I make mistake. They are never that perfect. For example in the Hydra battle I lost 50 cerberi because of missclick. I did not use safe that is normal because even with that casualty I know that the victory benefit is still giving me huge gains (in terms of experience).

Clean slate thinking is great but only for single player or various iterations of exactly the same map. That is also why I like ARMG . You never know what comes next!


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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 05, 2019 05:46 PM

I tried forcing an random overlord in tavern day 1, but the script functions don't work properly, so it will be +1 blood fury then

for stunning strike I can hardly go higher than 0.25

0.3 is mathematically superior to lightning bolt and it will just maintain the same stunning strike spamfest.

When a skill makes people doubt it is the best choice but never neglect it, it is likely balanced, as long as people see it a sure pick it is not!

@dredknight: I didn't know anything about ritual pit, but especially now this becomes a very late game XL map building, so it is probably fine already.


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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 05, 2019 05:51 PM

Quote:
so it will be +1 blood fury then



sounds good to me, thanks magno

Quote:
When a skill makes people doubt it is the best choice but never neglect it, it is likely balanced, as long as people see it a sure pick it is not!


Obviously, this is why the stun strike had to be nerfed.

Quote:
for stunning strike I can hardly go higher than 0.25


Well, i would ve preferred 0.3, but i can live with 0.25.
I think i would still pick it at times, so it cant be that bad.
I think Gryphn wont like it, but i wont argue on that anymore. Its good enough for me


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frogo
frogo


Hired Hero
posted November 05, 2019 06:09 PM

Quote:
I would suggest to try a single player game with Necro Reaver


Well,yeah if we balance anything towards the strength of reavers, we have a lot to do
I wasnt comparing anything to reavers because they are no option for anyone who wants to actually win a game (without being a superior player by far).

Quote:
Also make sure you play on map without added wells.


I know that magic heroes are weak without wells, no need to prove that to me i think the point there is more that armg maps need wells.
There is no way i would ever chose a magic hero on armg, they feel like fish on land in armg maps compared to might heroes.

Quote:
And one more thing, if you can help me to clear this a bit actually.
When you speak about good combat do you refer to clean slate one?
Where there player has zero losses?

Because if that is the case it is not an optimal point of view.

Every hero build more or less has some kind of blind spot army or blind spot time frame during the game where he suffers casualties.

For example - in my game with Byula - I got 3 Inferno castles one week 1, because high number of low tier units were part of my hero build as a Gatekeeper. I lost half my army but due the gain I got, 1 week was enough to recover and even have gains.


This was exactly my point. With most races (all except dungeon) you can afford some losses and even a missclick at times.
For an overlord, as stated, losing 1 fury per day is a death sentence. you need mostly clean sweeps to actually grow an army.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted November 05, 2019 06:46 PM

Quote:
I know that magic heroes are weak without wells, no need to prove that to me i think the point there is more that armg maps need wells.
There is no way i would ever chose a magic hero on armg, they feel like fish on land in armg maps compared to might heroes.


I think I have a solution for that, the ARMG cannot place wells reliably, but I can make a script setting that makes redwood observatories work like wells, since it forces them in every zone.
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