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Belisarius
Promising
Known Hero
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posted October 14, 2015 01:36 AM |
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@dredknight
Here ( http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/toe_creature_abilities.shtml ) it says this about Rider Charge:
Rider Charge = For each battlefield tile covered by this creature during attack, the target's Defense is reduced by 20% (all the way down to zero). Creatures: Dark Raider, Grim Raider. Brisk Rider, that is the second upgrade, does not have Rider Charge. It has Wheeling Attack, which is 25% of regular damage.
Didnt find anything on fb MMH5.5 about some changes to Rider Charge possibly made in 5.5
Can you please give exact numbers about the case you are mentioning?
Cause my logic goes like this:
If: "For each battlefield tile covered by this creature during attack" times X (some percentage) = Target defense reduction (as a result target defense cant be lower than zero, so max percentage can be 100%);
And: Grim Rider is big creature covering 4 squares/tiles = it moves one battlefield row and receive double times X (covering two battlefield tiles);
Then: Now (with X=20%) Grim only has to charge for 3 rows (in case of straight line charging) and get 100% defense reduction on target.
Else: In order to achieve less than 100% defense reduction charging on target which is at distance of 8 battlefield rows value of X needs to be less than 6.25%. Cause on 8 rows of distance Grim covers 16 battlefield tiles. (16 x 6.25 = 100)
"Though weak in attack and defense values, it is the Dark Raider's initiative, Hit Points, and good damage (also through Charge) that make it a favorable addition to the Dungeon army. Their speed and initiative is best put to use down the flanks where obstacles are minimal, which allows them to make use of their charge ability. Though expensive, their cost is illustrative of their ability."
Dark Rider = 300 gold and Grim Rider = 450 gold. Growth = 8 per week with castle.
Griffin = 250 gold, Imperial/Battle Griffin = 370 gold. Growth = 10 per week with castle.
Battlerager = 220 gold with 16 growth... etc
In my opinion Rider Charge is fine as it is. On rare occasions it can really be an excellent thing. But usually, in most cases, Rider Charging alone into the enemy is a suicide mission for Grim Riders. So one needs to use this ability with the general tactics of Dungeon in mind: "at the right time be quick and hit hard, or else..." 
Anyhow please give details for the case you are mentioning.
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MMH5.5 videos
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HVKnight
Hired Hero
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posted October 14, 2015 02:51 AM |
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Yes. Dungeon are weak enough in late game already, especially when using non warlock heroes. Please don't Nerf the riders!
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted October 14, 2015 08:03 AM |
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magnomagus said:
I thin kyour right about rider charge, for vengeance I need replay because it depends on whether the victim smartly focused on taking down high level creatures first.
it doesnt matter if you kill high level or low level.
Low level give 1 frag per kill high level give 12 frags per kill (something around that number).
I will send some replays later today.
Dungeon weak????
I just beated fortress Runelord on month 4.
he had 65 dragons against 53 for me (he had dwelling where I didnt).
He had 1/3 more tier 5 matriarchs than I had hydras (360 vs 200) (I had 2 castles + 1 dwelling he had 2 castles + 3 artifacts for tier 5!!!).
I had dark magic (Frenzy and puppet which I didnt use in some battles).
Anyway I will upload the replays you can state your point then.
I think Overlord + retribution is pretty nice combo! Nothing compared to weak!
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Nordos
Known Hero
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posted October 14, 2015 10:09 AM |
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Did that Runelord use Runes for each turn for each creature? Thats their strenght.
While Dungeon is, similar to Inferno, a faction which has low health compared to damage. Since your troops have very low growth, loosing one Stalker hurts as much as loosing 3 Imps, for example.
additonally, had he his T5 Artifacts on the same Hero or splitted between more Heroes? (which I guess).
What about your levels? What Magic did he use? How was he skilled?
You need to look at a lot of factors. There are always creatures which are glass cannons (Griffins are as well. Their one time Swoop can deal tremendous damage), that doesn't mean that they need to be nerfed.
The next test is to see whetever the same fight, using the alternative upgrades, plays in a similar manner or if you will loose. If you loose, then I agree that there is an unbalance.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 14, 2015 11:02 AM |
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Rider charge is overpowered because it % based instead of number, in late game it can result in reductions like -40 defense, because it reaches 100% already at 5 tiles, it should max out around 50% for balance on XL maps.
If dungeon is underpowered then the problem should not be solved by making one ability highly overpowered.
Quote:
Low level give 1 frag per kill high level give 12 frags per kill (something around that number).
According to manual frags = tier
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted October 14, 2015 12:39 PM |
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Here is the replays.
replay 1 - Dungeon wins. You can see the damage output of Vengeance used multiple times. He has resurrection but Vengeance is far better trade for the mana.
replay 2- Fortress wins. I misclicked twice and did a lot of stupid moves.
replay 3- Dungeon wins. No puppet/frenzy promiss from my side. Same for vengance from his side. I think he uses it once just to show the damage output.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 14, 2015 02:09 PM |
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 HOTFIX / BALANCE TEST
Download
-Fixes artifacts not working if any hero has shatter skills
-new approach to divine vengeance, previously used by tournament edition
-raise dead - little weaker early little stronger later
-resurrection - little stronger later
-rider charge 7.5% per cell
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted October 14, 2015 03:38 PM |
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I am gonna test this tomorrow on the same battle and let you know.
Where I can find the devine vengeance approach? Anything different than just twerking the spell numbers?
P.S.
I saw the spell changes... that will make quite a difference. Good work!
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dabuthegreat
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 14, 2015 05:50 PM |
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Quote:
-new approach to divine vengeance, previously used by tournament edition
Any details?
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted October 14, 2015 05:51 PM |
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Definitely one of the best Heroes mods which have EVER been done
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 14, 2015 05:55 PM |
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@Antalyan: thanks
The damage for divine vengeance is now
1.4 * frags *(spellpower+40)
instead of
4 * frags * (spellpower+8)
meaning it is more powerful with few frags, but far less overpowered with many frags.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted October 14, 2015 06:26 PM |
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magnomagus said:
@Antalyan: thanks
The damage for divine vengeance is now
1.4 * frags *(spellpower+40)
instead of
4 * frags * (spellpower+8)
meaning it is more powerful with few frags, but far less overpowered with many frags.
Not sure if I calculate it correctly but...
10 tier 7 creatures killed = 70 frags.
hero with 20 sp and expert light.
1.4*70*60=5880
20 tier 7 kills -> 11 760 damage... am I calculating something wrong???
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 14, 2015 06:29 PM |
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted October 14, 2015 08:35 PM |
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)
I did an excel spreadsnow for the New and Old spell damage.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/doxh9qqzjq693ra/Vengeance.xlsx?dl=0
Graph represents the first table.
Damage per frags for 20SP.
Red stands for old formula 4*squareF*(SP +8)
BLue stands for new formula 1.4*F*(SP+40)
on the left of the table i have marked how many tier 7 kills those frags roughly represent.
Below you can see second table that stands for How many HP per tier 7 kill is done for vengeance.
The more kills the less HP per kill.
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 14, 2015 09:23 PM |
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Nice work and also revealing, the spellpower addition seems to be redundant. There is no way the change the shape of graph. In other words: the damage cannot be made less dependant on the amount of kills, it can only be lowered.
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Nordos
Known Hero
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posted October 14, 2015 09:40 PM |
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the formel is static? And you can only change the amount of spellpower?
Hm. You can't do something like (Spellpower/10) or similar? And what about (Spellpower - 10)?
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted October 14, 2015 10:43 PM |
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Not possible, but I have to make one correction to my previous statement, the spellpower addittion will still have some impact on the effectiveness of might vs magic classes using the spell.
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Chaos1418
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 14, 2015 11:20 PM |
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Hi everyone  just wanted to say that its an awesome mod and i do thank the modders for creating something like an expansion it really does make it feel more alive but thats just my point of view. Its been a while since i played h5 and i found this mod by accident (was worth it)
There is a problem that REALLY bugs me. Since i play necro and its the faction i like te most, i usally play with OrnellaNecro (Internal name) mostly using her avatar for my own character but she is missing an animation for attacking and it really does make me sad. The problem is that she points at the target and the damage that follows no animation (spell animation works fine) and is there a way to add the animation myself and how? Btw i love her recolour makes her look more .... 'dead' (fits with necromancy)
Currently im using the Lich Master avatar for my custom hero till i can fix OrnellaNecro's attack animation.
Thank you D
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Belisarius
Promising
Known Hero
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posted October 15, 2015 01:09 AM |
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"Jousting: Creature gets a 5% bonus to damage it inflicts during attack for each tile it covered on the battlefield before the attack."
(Cavalier, Paladin, Champion)
So I guess Rider Charge with 7.5% would be fine. Especially because it is still getting the targets defense on 0, during a long run into it. (8 distance). This should be checked tho, best compared on the games from witch Dredknight gave us his replays. Since this whole reduction/balancing began with those games, anyways
I've also made some charts for Vengeance...two sheets... please take a look.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6g4gvkaxhc65fky/New%20vs%20Old%20Vengeance%20on%20Tier%207%20creatures.xls?dl=0
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MMH5.5 videos
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Chaos1418
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 15, 2015 08:41 AM |
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Never mind i found the problem with OrnellaNecro! i was using the old file from heroes of ashan but i updated it all with the heroes from the h5.5 and it works like a charm
again thank you guys for the mod it really is awesome just that ill be waiting for the next update that fixes a few bugs
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